Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM. Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

That is just an example, I won't bother looking up the rest.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

Once again I will state that I never said it would totally "fix" the issue, it would just improve its current effectiveness. I never denied that the spells themselves need to be reworked / tweaked in order to allow the community to actually use elemental affinity, however splitting the spells on seperate classes means to truly take advantage of affinity you would have to pick between the "inconic" elemental caster vs. the elemental/healer hybrid. I don't deny that WHM can do some damage, but pigeon holing the job advertised as the "mage damage dealer" into only 50% of the elements isn't exactly favourable to elemental affinity.

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage. This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

Wow you are blowing everything out of proportion here. Previously CNJ's had access to "destructive" spells, if I may kindly remind you. In fact they were effectively the more ideal BLM in some regards in my opinion (as they had all of the elements). So in actual fact the "lore" that you keep falling back to needs to be repaired as it is. No, gridania's lore does not have to change. Nor does any other classes' lore, aside from an already broken CNJ and THM lore. You keep falling back to this all important epic storyline that only 1/4 of the community probably actually read / followed instead of enter spam. I can have a guess that some of your beloved "lore" will be modified on some level in order to fit into the direction of the game.

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

You sound really angry. Elemental spells have predominantly been black magic, not white. See my example above.

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Yep I am trying to break the game and make it absolutely unbearable for you to play a class that is sub-optimal for practically any content worth talking about. I am in this to destroy your gaming experience by changing a couple of spell names and enhancing elemental affinity across the board of the game... I am evil and I am out to get you...

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Once again, it isn't about BLM only, it would improve elemental affinity across the board. Play BLM if you like nuking so much.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

I don't recall playing any FF's where WHM could cast "nature" nukes.. I am sure there is one or 2 somewhere in the series, however to say that BLM has only been limited to fire/blizzard/thunder aside from X&XI is horse poo. Again: see example above.

Last thing - people seem to be neglecting to link THM with BLM and CNJ with WHM when it comes to ability change proposals. Bear that in mind and think about ALL sides of the lore, functions, cross-class skill management, role and usefulness when proposing ideas.

Ok so swapping spells is going to affect other current jobs aside from WHM and BLM how? Sure THM&CNJ (as their classes) however I can't recall ever using Aero on Paladin or BRD . . .

Once again this thread isn't totally proposing this to be changed because realistically - it won't happen. The game is too far along to fix elemental affinity to something usable in the state that it is in. The thread was more of a discussion, to gather ideas or speculate what and how it [i]could[i] be improved.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

[stanleyyoung]

i almost can't believe that there are so many ppl that cannot move on or adjust to changes even opposed to anything different. Like i said it only takes the slightest change to cause riots & uproar whether its a change in weapon or few skills/abilities or slight alteration in a said job role.

The fact that bard has a bow & shoots stuff to some ppl is plain unacceptable or how whm has three spells and its the worst thing in the whole world. I even seen talk about blue mage if it doesn't have scimitars then SE might as well not add it or dark knight for that matter. If SE were to copy & paste drk exactly from XI with one slight change that it can only use great swords not scythes that ppl will want SE heads on sticks. The list can go on and on with any job to be added in 14 and the ppl thinking/mindset "If it ain't the same from XI, Then we don't want it & will not accept it" gets old and is plain annoying.

Its nice to see that there are some ppl like me who want a game that's unique, fun, and will not only stand out in the rpg genre but the FF franchise itself seeing people open to change and looking for something new/different is cool and good. I personally like how SE not only keeps to tradition but always tries to do something new and be innovative its why i mainly only play FF rpg games. I always have the nostalgia when i play a FF game but seeing SE bringing new things in is great. I personally am at the point where i only play FF rpg's and other rpg's out always boil down to me saying: this game is ok,good, fun, etc etc but its just not Final Fantasy.

[Mychael]

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

FF1: Quake attempts to instantly kill an enemy by swallowing them into the ground.
It is not an earth elemental spell.

FF3: Quake is a Level 7 Black Magic spell that causes major Earth-elemental damage. Only the Jobs Black Mage, Magus, Sage, and Onion Knight can use this spell. It can be bought in Doga's Village and in the Invincible.
It is not exclusive to BLM, though it is black magic in FF3.

FF4: In this version it is a non-elemental spell that damages all non-flying enemies and ignores Reflect.
Non-elemental

FF6,FF7, FF8--Quake is an earth elemental spell, but is not really attributed to a "class."

FF11: The only game where Black Mage exclusively receives Quake as an earth elemental spell.

FF13: Is not a spell, but a technique (that does deal earth elemental damage) learned by pretty much every character, in different roles of the crystarium.

FF Tactics: Quake is Planar Magic.

Crystal Chronicles RoF: Quake = piling Fire, Thunder, Cure, and Clear. It inflicts stun on the enemy

Crystal Chronicles EoT: A pillar of rock erupts from beneath the enemy, sending it flying into the air and inflicting a stun effect after landing.

See the trend?

Googling and reading FF wiki might not be the best way to argue.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

If one class had all elements, then either that class would be grossly overpowered (having an advantage against almost any mob) or the bonus from using the "correct" element would have to be so minimal that it barely existed (as you would ALWAYS be using the mob's weakness).

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage.

This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM, but one could argue the same for earth, air, and water spells

Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic

The THM lore that we know from 1.0 is butchered; I wasn't in alpha, but I believe that will change for 2.0. I'll try to find the dev post I'm thinking of.

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

Out of context, the bulk of this segment could describe ANY job. I think you vastly overestimate how "fun" it would be to have to stalk out the wiki page of EVERY mob you encounter to determine its weakness so you could optimize your damage.

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

No one else took you up on this offer, but... how much do you charge for a half hour? ;D

[Bowen]

This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

Very much this. The job that could come from CNJ could be a Geomancer/Elementalist (Though, Elementalist would probably be confusing considering the localization of CNJ in other languages.) that would focus on using terrain magic.

The same could be said for THM. They could make another Job (Necromancer?) that gets all it's old Sacrifice and resurrection spells back.

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

[Mychael]

I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

Not to derail, but--even more simplistically, the shroud is a deep forest. It is abundant in soil, trees, streams (which keep the forest alive, and air (again life for the forest). Fire, ice, and thunder have no place in the shroud other than distruction.

[Kinseykinz]

Once again I will state that I never said it would totally "fix" the issue, it would just improve its current effectiveness. I never denied that the spells themselves need to be reworked / tweaked in order to allow the community to actually use elemental affinity, however splitting the spells on seperate classes means to truly take advantage of affinity you would have to pick between the "inconic" elemental caster vs. the elemental/healer hybrid. I don't deny that WHM can do some damage, but pigeon holing the job advertised as the "mage damage dealer" into only 50% of the elements isn't exactly favourable to elemental affinity.

2 things about this:
1. Even if SE did give the current level 50 version of Black Mage ALL the Elemental Spells, you would not be happy because in order to balance the gameplay, Black Mages nukes would have to be very weak, have no enfeebling effects and would probably result in a loss of the 'Ancient Magic' Tier spells for the moment as there would be too many spells for the amount of skills/spells/abilities we can currently have.
2. You said yourself: Black Mage= 'Mage Damage Dealer' So why do they HAVE to have the Elemental Magic? Damage spells are not limited to 'elemental'.

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

The same logic could be applied to those of us asking you 'Why take these specific from CNJ/WHM to fix this 'boring' job' The reality is: 'Thunder' is just game-code. You are not shooting actual lightning bolts out your wrists killing real-life dragons. The devs could make the spell look like a pink pansy shooting out the black mages butt if they wanted to...so the 'Stone' spell or 'Aero' spell themselves will NOT fix a job you think is broken. That requires reworking the actual job and it's skillset. This can be effectively done WITHOUT stealing skills from other roles. There is no reason why BLM can't have 'Umbral Spike' etc.

Once again this thread isn't totally proposing this to be changed because realistically - it won't happen. The game is too far along to fix elemental affinity to something usable in the state that it is in. The thread was more of a discussion, to gather ideas or speculate what and how it [i]could[i] be improved.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

..except what you are wanting to do is exactly that overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting And if that was your goal with your Original Post all along, an effective title would have been something like 'Ideas for Making BLM more exciting' or 'Can Blackmage be more than a one-trick pony in ARR?' or 'New spell options for BLM to encourage more engaged gameplay'. and not 'Hey lets take spells from that pretty mage overthere...that'll make everything better'.

Also, lets just say that SE DID change the Mages spell tree so that BLM did aquire Stone, Stonera, Aero and Aerora. What 4 Spells/abilities should Black Mage/THM give up to gain these spells? ( you'd need to give up 6 if you expect their 'Ancient' counterparts as well) Because every job/class needs to be balanced in how many abilities/spells/skills they have.

Again, we're only MIDGAME level... if you notice, yes, White Mage CAN cast 2 elemental magics...Stone and Aero. But they CANNOT cast the 'Ancient Magic' counterpart. More than likely, Black Mage will get Quake, Flood and Tornado as 'Ancient Magics' and WHM will unlock bigger heals and restorative spells once level caps are raised.