Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Shougun]

I think in the past wanting the game to be modeled after other FF titles game kinda stifled a lot of possible creativity. "New doesn't always equal good" as they said.

Still praying for a real protect bubble like in that opening cinematic of 1.0 and the little jellies...

[Biggs]

I would be in favor of removing the basic general damage spells and replacing them with holy magic as well as making this job excel at killing the undead.

[kazaran]

Hopefully they will change it. Elementals belong on blm, and perhaps some on Arcanist, but that's because they hinted as THM being a precursor, and you will see why.

Whm needs weakign effects more then BLM, some dots, and superior undead control. Holy, Banish, sear, Dia, and other like and white based. Doesn't mean on the undead they can't have damaging spells, they should on undead, and dark, and BLM based be resisted.

[Aion]

Conjurer's lore related to elementals. DEAL WITH IT.

[Reika]

Conjurer's lore related to elementals. DEAL WITH IT.

I think they should change it like they want to change THMs

[Altena]

Lore aside, since that seems to be the biggest defense in removing CNJ/WHM's elemental spells, giving the elements back to BLM would create a better battle mechanic for BLM, introduce less thunder-only-spam, and potentially make BLM a much more fun job to play, while truly not affecting WHM's ability to deal damage.

I might have unleashed a bit of a monster in creating this topic as some WHM's would probably be a bit butthurt to see their beloved elemental spells go, but replacing them with an equal alternative wouldn't be enough?

As for the comments about RDM getting divine nukes - that blows a lot of FF lore out the window in my opinion as they have been fairly exclusive to WHM from the FF's that I have played at least. Not to mention I truly hope to see RDM develop into the true fighting mage that it was originally meant to be in XI (but became broken). That topic aside . . .

This won't really happen, I am 99% sure of it, however it is slightly bothersome to me how BLM will indeed miss a large portion of iconic BLM spells (ancient magic) and WHM will miss their iconic divine nukes. Giving these spells to a completely different class will throw a lot of things out of wack I feel.

In 1.0 there was very little elemental affinity. I mean it was there, but no one really used strengths / weaknesses because spells were split up among classes. BLM's mechanic was basically "if it's strong to thunder - cast fire, and if it's strong to fire - cast thunder, everything else - cast thunder".

Of course 2.0 comes with changes, however I don't think it's smart to speculate how / if the spells will have changed to a large degree. Currently BLM is pretty damn boring for a mage class. Sure you land some high numbers, but the 123 spam gets old, and adding elemental affinity in there I think would make it *slightly* more interesting.

So if everyone were to ignore the lore for just one moment, do you not agree that it would improve the battle mechanic of BLM to give them the 6 elements, and reintroduce elemental affinity that actually means something? Is giving WHM's equivalent spells to their current skillset, with different names and animations not enough?

This is a genuine question, and the reason I made the thread in the first place really. I mean something like this in the lore can easily be adjusted. Our whole continent practically blew up, what is to say that Conjurers didn't turn to higher powers (divine).

Also on a side note, I thought it was amusing that one of the rewards for the THM guild in 1.0 was a wind brand.. Obviously the adjustments made in early 1.0 (can't remember which patch) ignored the THM lore..

[whoopeeragon]

Lore aside, since that seems to be the biggest defense in removing CNJ/WHM's elemental spells, giving the elements back to BLM would create a better battle mechanic for BLM, introduce less thunder-only-spam, and potentially make BLM a much more fun job to play, while truly not affecting WHM's ability to deal damage.

I might have unleashed a bit of a monster in creating this topic as some WHM's would probably be a bit butthurt to see their beloved elemental spells go, but replacing them with an equal alternative wouldn't be enough?

As for the comments about RDM getting divine nukes - that blows a lot of FF lore out the window in my opinion as they have been fairly exclusive to WHM from the FF's that I have played at least. Not to mention I truly hope to see RDM develop into the true fighting mage that it was originally meant to be in XI (but became broken). That topic aside . . .

This won't really happen, I am 99% sure of it, however it is slightly bothersome to me how BLM will indeed miss a large portion of iconic BLM spells (ancient magic) and WHM will miss their iconic divine nukes. Giving these spells to a completely different class will throw a lot of things out of wack I feel.

In 1.0 there was very little elemental affinity. I mean it was there, but no one really used strengths / weaknesses because spells were split up among classes. BLM's mechanic was basically "if it's strong to thunder - cast fire, and if it's strong to fire - cast thunder, everything else - cast thunder".

Of course 2.0 comes with changes, however I don't think it's smart to speculate how / if the spells will have changed to a large degree. Currently BLM is pretty damn boring for a mage class. Sure you land some high numbers, but the 123 spam gets old, and adding elemental affinity in there I think would make it *slightly* more interesting.

So if everyone were to ignore the lore for just one moment, do you not agree that it would improve the battle mechanic of BLM to give them the 6 elements, and reintroduce elemental affinity that actually means something? Is giving WHM's equivalent spells to their current skillset, with different names and animations not enough?

This is a genuine question, and the reason I made the thread in the first place really. I mean something like this in the lore can easily be adjusted. Our whole continent practically blew up, what is to say that Conjurers didn't turn to higher powers (divine).

Also on a side note, I thought it was amusing that one of the rewards for the THM guild in 1.0 was a wind brand.. Obviously the adjustments made in early 1.0 (can't remember which patch) ignored the THM lore..

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

Last thing - people seem to be neglecting to link THM with BLM and CNJ with WHM when it comes to ability change proposals. Bear that in mind and think about ALL sides of the lore, functions, cross-class skill management, role and usefulness when proposing ideas.

[Reika]

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

Black mage has been able to use water wind and earth magic in Final fantasies way prior FFX.........

here, black magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Magic

[whoopeeragon]

Black mage has been able to use water wind and earth magic in Final fantasies way prior FFX......... homework is to be done by you.

Umm....really, tell me where. In all the job system games used, tell me WHERE that water, earth and wind tiers have been found. I make a point of difference because tiers are different from powerful magics, which quake, flood and tornado are. Even then, flood's first appearance was FFVI, tornado was a WHM spell in FFIII, and quake was non-elemental in FFI. Homework to be done by you, it seems.

[Altena]

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM. Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

That is just an example, I won't bother looking up the rest.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

Once again I will state that I never said it would totally "fix" the issue, it would just improve its current effectiveness. I never denied that the spells themselves need to be reworked / tweaked in order to allow the community to actually use elemental affinity, however splitting the spells on seperate classes means to truly take advantage of affinity you would have to pick between the "inconic" elemental caster vs. the elemental/healer hybrid. I don't deny that WHM can do some damage, but pigeon holing the job advertised as the "mage damage dealer" into only 50% of the elements isn't exactly favourable to elemental affinity.

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage. This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

Wow you are blowing everything out of proportion here. Previously CNJ's had access to "destructive" spells, if I may kindly remind you. In fact they were effectively the more ideal BLM in some regards in my opinion (as they had all of the elements). So in actual fact the "lore" that you keep falling back to needs to be repaired as it is. No, gridania's lore does not have to change. Nor does any other classes' lore, aside from an already broken CNJ and THM lore. You keep falling back to this all important epic storyline that only 1/4 of the community probably actually read / followed instead of enter spam. I can have a guess that some of your beloved "lore" will be modified on some level in order to fit into the direction of the game.

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

You sound really angry. Elemental spells have predominantly been black magic, not white. See my example above.

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Yep I am trying to break the game and make it absolutely unbearable for you to play a class that is sub-optimal for practically any content worth talking about. I am in this to destroy your gaming experience by changing a couple of spell names and enhancing elemental affinity across the board of the game... I am evil and I am out to get you...

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Once again, it isn't about BLM only, it would improve elemental affinity across the board. Play BLM if you like nuking so much.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

I don't recall playing any FF's where WHM could cast "nature" nukes.. I am sure there is one or 2 somewhere in the series, however to say that BLM has only been limited to fire/blizzard/thunder aside from X&XI is horse poo. Again: see example above.

Last thing - people seem to be neglecting to link THM with BLM and CNJ with WHM when it comes to ability change proposals. Bear that in mind and think about ALL sides of the lore, functions, cross-class skill management, role and usefulness when proposing ideas.

Ok so swapping spells is going to affect other current jobs aside from WHM and BLM how? Sure THM&CNJ (as their classes) however I can't recall ever using Aero on Paladin or BRD . . .

Once again this thread isn't totally proposing this to be changed because realistically - it won't happen. The game is too far along to fix elemental affinity to something usable in the state that it is in. The thread was more of a discussion, to gather ideas or speculate what and how it [i]could[i] be improved.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.