Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

This exactly.

Your "strengths" will be greatly reduced
Along with your weaknesses.. So it balances out to be a more consistent spell..

The point in my OP was to make Dia/Banish equal in strength to Aero & Stone. WHM wouldn't lose any nuking power, just get a slight adjustment to elemental affinity.

[Altena]

Just to be an ass first:

Lol you want classic identies *looks at the classic Final Fantasy Bard and remembers how you said I was making no sense..*

Cool story bro.

(Also it makes the BLM not the magic nuker because if something weak to stone honestly WHM will do better- personally tested it lol).

But this point is valid. This is sort of where WHM steps on BLM's toes a little (15 min DH I am looking at you specifically).. But in saying that I don't think the offensive strength of WHM should decrease, but more of a sideways change into the light element rather then the raw elements (stone aero water).

I'd also love to see some more holy spells for WHM, dia, banish, and cure/raise being a nuke to undead

Yes, and demons. (ie Batraal etc). While limiting WHM's "strengths" list in regards to element to only undead / demons, you are also limiting the "weakness", so in actual fact WHM's nukes will have a much wider scale of being effective then a stand alone element would be. Meaning less resits / more consistent numbers.

Perhaps they can make class abilities that dont go to the job like stone and aero do not go to WHM as an offensive spell but BLM picks them up. Then WHM picks up two new nukes extra to his normal 5+ (You could do this to other jobs too (replace X ability for Y) where it makes sense and this would make having classes have two jobs be easier as well since you could just take a few and replace the ones that you dont want like aero -> dia, stone -> banish kind of thing).

Edit: that last thing could work for jobs duo but its also messy, just wanted to add I realize its messy :P

I don't really understand that last bit, maybe I am just not reading it correctly.

If WHM wants to use elemental nukes - then all they have to do is /job off, and they have access to the BLM elements.

I remember an old white magic spell called Zombie (iirc) which allowed healer to pretty much become a very effective single target damage dealer. Basically if Zombie landed on a mob it would gain an "undead" effect to which any healing spells cast on it could do pretty nasty damage. I miss these kind of spells, they were very creative and just made the job more interesting.

But yes, I would love to see a return of offensive type spells for WHM for that extra bit of versatility and survivability should the situation arise.

I think zombie has a high chance of being OP on bosses... Although ruling it out would be silly.

Look at old old FF games. WHM has aero, stone, tornado, and quake.

Hmm to be honest the only "old old" FF game I played was FF1, and I seem to remember BLM getting those spells.. I stand corrected at it being not part of the lore to give these spells to WHM.

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

It wouldn't be removing WHM's offensive ability, it would simply be changing the name, changing the animation, changing the elemental affinity a tad, and then adding Aero/Water/Stone to BLM's spell list (removing some abilities perhaps to pave the way).

WHM would still get similarly potent spells to Aero/Stone (dia/banish if implemented correctly), and of course the ability to heal.

Giving BLM this skill set would improve the currently boring spell casting system, depending on creativity.. For example AM could have an additional effect of reducing enemy's resistance to a certain element, or chaining unresisted combo from Aero>Aeroa>Aeroga>Tornado could give some form of damage bonus...

As it stands the spellcasting system for BLM is incredibly boring (for most people). Simplifying the elements back onto BLM (as the lore allows it) would increase the "fun factor" of spellcasting on BLM, while not nerfing WHM's ability by giving them equally effective spells to counter what they lost.

[Asael]

I think zombie has a high chance of being OP on bosses... Although ruling it out would be silly.

Of course, there would definitely have to be tweaks to make such a spell balanced. Say the odds of it landing on a regular mob is very likely, the odds of it landing on a NM is less likely, and the odds of it landing on a boss such as Garuda is slim to none. Then even in the event the effect does stick, casting raise for a one hit KO is out of the question, so cure bombs only. But yes, I'm sure various mechanics could be implemented so such a spell doesn't become OP.

[Shougun]

Of course, there would definitely have to be tweaks to make such a spell balanced. Say the odds of it landing on a regular mob is very likely, the odds of it landing on a NM is less likely, and the odds of it landing on a boss such as Garuda is slim to none. Then even in the event the effect does stick, casting raise for a one hit KO is out of the question, so cure bombs only. But yes, I'm sure various mechanics could be implemented so such a spell doesn't become OP.

I'd hope for stacks instead of chance to apply*.


Say that you can stack the buff, and there is a maximum multiplier. Certain monsters (like bosses) will be more resistant and will require more stacks to hit full effect - for transparency once you hit max stack it could tell you and then save it in your bestiary under monster resistances (Boss bla bla 10 stack resistance, meaning you wont get full potency till 10 stacks - some may be immune like those already undead, and you may get more complex like 10 stacks to max stack but even then you aren't at full capacity so it could read "Undead 12 * 75%" and you would know at 12 stacks you will get a max of 75% efficiency rather then what you'd expect)

As far as I know there will be a bestiary in FFXIV :P
Example for those going wtf is that:

*Or you can mix them in (like the chance increases as the stack grows (from failed tries), I just dont want to see debuffs being useless because its like "well.. he'll just dodge them all so dont waste your time")

Also could turn the buff name once at maximum to "turned undead" or something since you completed the process on them (though those who you cant get a full efficiency on would never turn all the way).

[Asael]

I'd hope for stacks instead of chance to apply.


Say that you can stack the buff, and there is a maximum multiplier. Certain monsters (like bosses) will be more resistant and will require more stacks to hit full effect - for transparency once you hit max stack it could tell you and then save it in your bestiary under monster resistances (Boss bla bla 10 stack resistance, meaning you wont get full potency till 10 stacks - some may be immune like those already undead, and you may get more complex like 10 stacks to max stack but even then you aren't at full capacity so it could read "Undead 12 * 75%" and you would know at 12 stacks you will get a max of 75% efficiency rather then what you'd expect)

As far as I know there will be a bestiary in FFXIV :P
Example for those going wtf is that:

Also could turn the buff name once at maximum to "turned undead" or something since you completed the process on them (though those who you cant get a full efficiency on would never turn all the way).

Yurp, perfect example of another mechanic that could be utilized. I miss spell stacking back when you had to cast slow over and over and over again for maximum effect. xD

[Kinseykinz]

You post # 12

Cool story bro.

Your post #27

Link your thread and call it a day. Don't really want this topic to be derailed.

Your post #116

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

Wow you are blowing everything out of proportion here. ...if I may kindly remind you...

You might think this is nice, but really you are talking down to him here

In the same post you go on to say

You keep falling back to this all important epic storyline that only 1/4 of the community probably actually read / followed instead of enter spam. I can have a guess that some of your beloved "lore" will be modified on some level in order to fit into the direction of the game.

You sound really angry. Elemental spells have predominantly been black magic, not white. See my example above.

Yep I am trying to break the game and make it absolutely unbearable for you to play a class that is sub-optimal for practically any content worth talking about. I am in this to destroy your gaming experience by changing a couple of spell names and enhancing elemental affinity across the board of the game... I am evil and I am out to get you...

Post #117

I couldn't give a rats about mages all in all. I barely play them and only play them if I have to.

I am not completely close minded, and if someone has suggestions on improving the currently boring battle mechanic that BLM has, I am yet to see that post. To be honest I think there are a lot more close minded CNJ lovers on here.

#154

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

#158

In other words people should read posts, instead of hitting the reply button straight after reading the subject line.

#160 ...in response to the poster you told to read the posts calling you out on your rudeness:

Nope, I'm peachy But my statement still stands.

#165

People seem to really love this "lore" argument. Perhaps it's because it is the only thing holding that opinion together.

Don't give me that CNJ rubbish either. The only time you will ever use CNJ is possibly when you are solo'ing. Even then, you lack an extremely nice WHM only buff - Regen.

#198

Kinsey - I will call it a Wheel all I like, people including yourself know what I have been referring to, so it's just a weak pry at a pathetic argument about semantics.

Regardless how the "elemental wheel" (come at me) is constructed, currently the BLM line of spells are more flexible and powerful then those on the WHM skill set.

Once again if you read my OP, and following replies, you will notice that I am asking for ideas / discussion in order to fix the current issue of a lack luster elemental wheel, and a boring job (BLM), and I am yet to actually see ideas or compromises that would effectively improve the current issue.

You throw my opinion back in my face, and I will continue to throw yours. Once you come up with a compromise that would improve the issue that is stated in the OP (BLM being boring, lack of elemental affinity), I will take your posts with a grain of salt.

When you have some creative input, then I will listen.

#219

#247

Because soloing with Light magic would be sooooo much slower then Aero/Stone

*facepalm*.

This doesn't even include when you are just simply arguing with people but at least doing it in a civil manner.

Did people get snippy and snarky with you? Sure, sure they did. But, don't even try to pretend you have been polite to people. Because of all the posters and postings in this thread, you are the only person consistantly being a jerk about it. Simply because not everyone sees it YOUR way.

[Altena]

You post # 12
Did people get snippy and snarky with you? Sure, sure they did. But, don't even try to pretend you have been polite to people. Because of all the posters and postings in this thread, you are the only person consistantly being a jerk about it. Simply because not everyone sees it YOUR way.

Quite a hypocritical post, and yet another derail.

If I said "Pineapples are too sweet", you would probably take offence to it if you like pineapple.

If you review the quotes above, you will notice that each is in response to a "snarky" comment directed at me, and my opinion. It is quite easy to make any comment I say seem worse then it is. 90% of the quotes you snipped barely even scratch the surface of being personally offensive or let alone warrant direct name calling.

Also for your information: correcting grammar and semantics is indeed an attempt at offending someone's intelligence.

Without further derailing, I am really looking forward to your opinion on my last post regarding the topic in the OP.

[NoloeTazier]

I think if Black Mage's nukes weren't so bad, we wouldn't be having these conversations. Like somehow we think giving Black Mage Stone, Aero, and Water nukes will fix the problem with the Spell system on a whole. But sadly it won't. I've warmed up to Aero/Stone being on Conjurer/White Mage I just wished they weren't so Enfeeble/Debuff oriented. Hard to have classes devoted to Enfeebling/Debuffing when every Job has them tied into side effects of Spells or Weaponskills.

I mean I'd be fine with giving Black Mage Stone/Aero/Water and White Mage having Banish/Scourge. Heck if Banish/Scourge did have the Debuff effect of Astral/Umbral down (like old Thaum had) then it would ACTUALLY help Black Mage with the Spell repetoire. But yeah, Spells all around are bad, atleast damaging spells are.

If Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines for Black Mage were fixed, then I think we could all overlook Aero/Stone/Water on White Mage, even though we all mostly want White Mage focusing on healing. Even then I think the whole elemental wheel needs to be fixed period.

[Deronguerra]

I mean I'd be fine with giving Black Mage Stone/Aero/Water and White Mage having Banish/Scourge. Heck if Banish/Scourge did have the Debuff effect of Astral/Umbral down (like old Thaum had) then it would ACTUALLY help Black Mage with the Spell repetoire. But yeah, Spells all around are bad, atleast damaging spells are.

If Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines for Black Mage were fixed, then I think we could all overlook Aero/Stone/Water on White Mage, even though we all mostly want White Mage focusing on healing. Even then I think the whole elemental wheel needs to be fixed period.

WHM stone is a full spectrum magic def down. Aero bleeds. Why Scourge and Banish??
Also, water or air spells are linked to healing. Stone is stone skin.
It's really not hard to make an /assist macro and toss a stone and aero. And all jobs have some kind of HP skill and regen is OP. lets give the whm something to do other than cure.

[Altena]

WHM stone is a full spectrum magic def down. Aero bleeds. Why Scourge and Banish??
Also, water or air spells are linked to healing. Stone is stone skin.
It's really not hard to make an /assist macro and toss a stone and aero. And all jobs have some kind of HP skill and regen is OP. lets give the whm something to do other than cure.

The point is to give BLM more diversity, and options when a monster is strong against their current skillset, along with giving spell casting on BLM more variety and fun, without nerfing WHM's ability to aid in nuking.