Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

THM: http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/abilitylist.html?class=22&page=1
CNJ: http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/abilitylist....ip=1&order_by=


how crap down memory lane lol (tbh I miss all the options and slotting)

I forgot how wack those skillsets were.

[Reika]

I forgot how wack those skillsets were.

The current skillsets are wack. THMs old skillset went with the lore behind it before they decided to make it the black mage of the game. The current skillset does not.

Just like cnj's old skill set went with it before they hazardously decided to make it the white mage of the game.

They had to change the lore of both in order to create a partial black mage. I was totally fine with the lore of cnj when there were no jobs, it being in tune with -The elements- which are more than just 3 elements, all of them, and thm being practitioners of the more darker arts and not trying to be elementalists, but like we are asking for here, having different types of attacks at its disposal that still worked quite well.

If WHM went to having just banish and holy, that would be quite enough because banish and scourge was enough for THM back in the day since it was the better healer at the time.

[Altena]

The current skillsets are wack. THMs old skillset went with the lore behind it before they decided to make it the black mage of the game. The current skillset does not.

Just like cnj's old skill set went with it before they hazardously decided to make it the white mage of the game.

Screw lore.

When I played THM and CNJ in the early days before the changes (only low levels), I thought it was garbage. I am glad they changed to a more distinct role and not 2 weird hybrid magey jobs.

[whoopeeragon]

Lore aside, since that seems to be the biggest defense in removing CNJ/WHM's elemental spells, giving the elements back to BLM would create a better battle mechanic for BLM, introduce less thunder-only-spam, and potentially make BLM a much more fun job to play, while truly not affecting WHM's ability to deal damage.

I might have unleashed a bit of a monster in creating this topic as some WHM's would probably be a bit butthurt to see their beloved elemental spells go, but replacing them with an equal alternative wouldn't be enough?

As for the comments about RDM getting divine nukes - that blows a lot of FF lore out the window in my opinion as they have been fairly exclusive to WHM from the FF's that I have played at least. Not to mention I truly hope to see RDM develop into the true fighting mage that it was originally meant to be in XI (but became broken). That topic aside . . .

This won't really happen, I am 99% sure of it, however it is slightly bothersome to me how BLM will indeed miss a large portion of iconic BLM spells (ancient magic) and WHM will miss their iconic divine nukes. Giving these spells to a completely different class will throw a lot of things out of wack I feel.

In 1.0 there was very little elemental affinity. I mean it was there, but no one really used strengths / weaknesses because spells were split up among classes. BLM's mechanic was basically "if it's strong to thunder - cast fire, and if it's strong to fire - cast thunder, everything else - cast thunder".

Of course 2.0 comes with changes, however I don't think it's smart to speculate how / if the spells will have changed to a large degree. Currently BLM is pretty damn boring for a mage class. Sure you land some high numbers, but the 123 spam gets old, and adding elemental affinity in there I think would make it *slightly* more interesting.

So if everyone were to ignore the lore for just one moment, do you not agree that it would improve the battle mechanic of BLM to give them the 6 elements, and reintroduce elemental affinity that actually means something? Is giving WHM's equivalent spells to their current skillset, with different names and animations not enough?

This is a genuine question, and the reason I made the thread in the first place really. I mean something like this in the lore can easily be adjusted. Our whole continent practically blew up, what is to say that Conjurers didn't turn to higher powers (divine).

Also on a side note, I thought it was amusing that one of the rewards for the THM guild in 1.0 was a wind brand.. Obviously the adjustments made in early 1.0 (can't remember which patch) ignored the THM lore..

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

Last thing - people seem to be neglecting to link THM with BLM and CNJ with WHM when it comes to ability change proposals. Bear that in mind and think about ALL sides of the lore, functions, cross-class skill management, role and usefulness when proposing ideas.

[Reika]

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

Black mage has been able to use water wind and earth magic in Final fantasies way prior FFX.........

here, black magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Magic

[whoopeeragon]

Black mage has been able to use water wind and earth magic in Final fantasies way prior FFX......... homework is to be done by you.

Umm....really, tell me where. In all the job system games used, tell me WHERE that water, earth and wind tiers have been found. I make a point of difference because tiers are different from powerful magics, which quake, flood and tornado are. Even then, flood's first appearance was FFVI, tornado was a WHM spell in FFIII, and quake was non-elemental in FFI. Homework to be done by you, it seems.

[Alaltus]

Lore aside, since that seems to be the biggest defense in removing CNJ/WHM's elemental spells, giving the elements back to BLM would create a better battle mechanic for BLM, introduce less thunder-only-spam, and potentially make BLM a much more fun job to play, while truly not affecting WHM's ability to deal damage.

Except the issue isn't that Black Mage doesn't have all the elements. Which players like to forget, it's that the three elements they do have aren't usable most of the time besides thunder. Fix their elements and voila problem solved.

This won't really happen, I am 99% sure of it, however it is slightly bothersome to me how BLM will indeed miss a large portion of iconic BLM spells (ancient magic) and WHM will miss their iconic divine nukes. Giving these spells to a completely different class will throw a lot of things out of wack I feel.

Black Mage might miss some nukes it has been able to cast like Quake, Tornado and Flood but i imagine White Mage will get Holy spells unlocked no matter what happens. Just let Black Mage weild the Dark Element/Non Elemental spells its not outside their lore to do so. Like why not have a Bio nuke again like in past games? i'm sure SE could make it work. Give them spells to make up for times when they cannot take advantage of a weakness they dont always need to be doing optimal damage.

So if everyone were to ignore the lore for just one moment, do you not agree that it would improve the battle mechanic of BLM to give them the 6 elements, and reintroduce elemental affinity that actually means something? Is giving WHM's equivalent spells to their current skillset, with different names and animations not enough?

This is a genuine question, and the reason I made the thread in the first place really. I mean something like this in the lore can easily be adjusted. Our whole continent practically blew up, what is to say that Conjurers didn't turn to higher powers (divine).

Yes and no... giving Black Mage all the elements isn't a magic wand, it won't magically fix the issues Black Mage currently has especially if those spells end up utility based like the rest. The issue is that Utility is getting in the way of making the decision to take advantage of a weakness. So long as they dont fix that you will find that Black Mage can't and wont make full use of the Elements they weild however many that may be.

[whoopeeragon]

^ Thank you, you managed to put into three paragraphs what I long-windedly spouted out through my bs-ing skills. -grateful that others are more succinct than me-

[stanleyyoung]

what im getting tired of in this thread and others like it is the fact that ppl want carbon copy jobs form xi, and this is pretty much a well known fact and is true. What i see at the core of all the grief about the jobs in 14 is that ppl have in their minds that "XI invented the jobs along with setting the standard in how they should be/play and set the tradition too". There is nothing wrong with using XI as reference or even a base but SE keeping to traditional looking at the entire series for a start with designing jobs but also trying to be innovative and change things up a little is good and personally i like it.

We all see the fiasco with blm and whm with the spells they should/shouldn't have or how they are supposed to be which mainly comes from that fact that they aren't exactly like XI. To add look at the grief about the current bard we have in 14, you can see thread after thread about how it needs or needs not to be. I actually like how whm can primarily heal but do some dps with the element spells it has or how bard can support but do some dps. Its nice to see that a whm not only keeps the party alive but sometimes there are cases like you guys pointed out that whm was a saving grace since it could deal dmg with the elements.

We have this problem that ppl can't let go of XI and aren't open to any new changes or ideas for jobs in 14 unless they are exact replicas of XI but not everyone is like that. Just look at the thread made not to long ago about ninja with the dog idea, you saw how ppl said fuck it that idea is dumb keep ninja like XI or that will not work so don't change my ninja, how dare SE even think about doing that, or that's not tradition so get the hell out of here with the ninja & dog idea.

You guys think we have a problem now with the whm, blm & brd situation how bad will it get when say samurai finally gets added and it does not play 100% the same from XI. There will be riots all over if sam isn't exactly like XI, lets add to that with rdm if it isn't carbon copy from XI then there will be hell to pay. And it doesn't take much for this to occur any slight change or variation in the jobs for 14 that are different from XI then we will have ppl gathering together at running about crazy with their pitch forks and torches.

The list goes on & on with jobs being added and until we as a community can break from the thinking "XI invented the jobs along with setting the standard in how they should be/play and set the tradition too". At that point when we break away from that thinking we can then have a good game with cool jobs that have core traditions but having neat and new cool stuff also which will make 14 a good game.

[Gemma]

Lore aside, since that seems to be the biggest defense in removing CNJ/WHM's elemental spells, giving the elements back to BLM would create a better battle mechanic for BLM, introduce less thunder-only-spam, and potentially make BLM a much more fun job to play, while truly not affecting WHM's ability to deal damage.

I might have unleashed a bit of a monster in creating this topic as some WHM's would probably be a bit butthurt to see their beloved elemental spells go, but replacing them with an equal alternative wouldn't be enough?

As for the comments about RDM getting divine nukes - that blows a lot of FF lore out the window in my opinion as they have been fairly exclusive to WHM from the FF's that I have played at least. Not to mention I truly hope to see RDM develop into the true fighting mage that it was originally meant to be in XI (but became broken). That topic aside . . .

This won't really happen, I am 99% sure of it, however it is slightly bothersome to me how BLM will indeed miss a large portion of iconic BLM spells (ancient magic) and WHM will miss their iconic divine nukes. Giving these spells to a completely different class will throw a lot of things out of wack I feel.

In 1.0 there was very little elemental affinity. I mean it was there, but no one really used strengths / weaknesses because spells were split up among classes. BLM's mechanic was basically "if it's strong to thunder - cast fire, and if it's strong to fire - cast thunder, everything else - cast thunder".

Of course 2.0 comes with changes, however I don't think it's smart to speculate how / if the spells will have changed to a large degree. Currently BLM is pretty damn boring for a mage class. Sure you land some high numbers, but the 123 spam gets old, and adding elemental affinity in there I think would make it *slightly* more interesting.

So if everyone were to ignore the lore for just one moment, do you not agree that it would improve the battle mechanic of BLM to give them the 6 elements, and reintroduce elemental affinity that actually means something? Is giving WHM's equivalent spells to their current skillset, with different names and animations not enough?

This is a genuine question, and the reason I made the thread in the first place really. I mean something like this in the lore can easily be adjusted. Our whole continent practically blew up, what is to say that Conjurers didn't turn to higher powers (divine).

Also on a side note, I thought it was amusing that one of the rewards for the THM guild in 1.0 was a wind brand.. Obviously the adjustments made in early 1.0 (can't remember which patch) ignored the THM lore..

If you want to have access to stone and aero spells whats the big deal playing thm? I do it. I actually prefer thm over blm so I CAN use those spells. With thm I have way more survivability, too squishy as blm lol. BLM doesnt have to have all the elemental spells, for the OP to say whm is "butthurt" (freakin hate that stupid term -_-) it sounds more like you are "butthurt" that BLM isnt all super badass.

You want a more valid reason other then lore reasons, but will it really make a difference to you? You're still going to think blm needs all the elemental spells and whm needs light spells. It's not going to change so I just don't really see the point in ppl fighting or name calling about it. WHM is an advanced version of CNJ. CNJ uses aero/stone. you take that away from whm then you take it away from cnj and you've just messed up a good chunk of how Eorzea is suppose to work.

I think lore is a pretty good reason on its own. I personally like the lore how its set up now.
Besides someone brought up the good point earlier that 50 isn't always going to be the cap.