Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[DardGhalawad]

CNJ is a class, wich means, it's the base pillar of the job.
The job is to be considered a "specialist", then WHM should be able to use Light/Holy spells.

[NoloeTazier]

Wouldn't make much sense for CNJ to use holy spells...now if WHM was seperate class, then that'd be another thing.
As lv cap goes up, WHM might learn more holy/astral type spells; dealing with undead/umbral mobs.

Conjurer Lore was already butchered when Thaum was given Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines. I'll be honest I tend to ignore Conjurer/Thaumaturge and just roll with White Mage/Black Mage lore. Kan-E-Senna gives us our White Mage powers, one being Holy, so clearly WHM could obtain more Holy/Astral-type Spells, which is perfectly fine.

I'm fine with things as they are, the thing I'm not fine with are the uselessness that comes with our damaging spells, losing power so they can have secondary enfeeble/debuffs just annoys me and feels so wrong. What I am for is giving the Elemental Wheel an actual weight, WHM/BLM don't always need a Super Effective spell to hit every mob but atleast having 1 neutral line gives them the ability to go into any content. The lines should also be comparable in MP and base Power, with this you can give Abilities, Gear, and the Elements more accountability. And I think it'd make everyone feel better and give back a "FF" feeling.

off topic but yeah, wanted to voice a concern

[Reika]

Not happening.

As it's been stated, if you bother to play the old FF games you'll see whms have wind, water and earth elemental magic.
Furthermore, we're playing a MMO. The whms you see in non-MMO FF games which have nothing but cures and divine magic also have parties of competent damage dealers and are designed to act as a support role in that team. MMO characters do not log in with 3-4 other characters capable of killing stuff.

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.

People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better.

Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

[Radacci]

Conjurer Lore was already butchered when Thaum was given Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines. I'll be honest I tend to ignore Conjurer/Thaumaturge and just roll with White Mage/Black Mage lore. Kan-E-Senna gives us our White Mage powers, one being Holy, so clearly WHM could obtain more Holy/Astral-type Spells, which is perfectly fine.

I'm fine with things as they are, the thing I'm not fine with are the uselessness that comes with our damaging spells, losing power so they can have secondary enfeeble/debuffs just annoys me and feels so wrong. What I am for is giving the Elemental Wheel an actual weight, WHM/BLM don't always need a Super Effective spell to hit every mob but atleast having 1 neutral line gives them the ability to go into any content. The lines should also be comparable in MP and base Power, with this you can give Abilities, Gear, and the Elements more accountability. And I think it'd make everyone feel better and give back a "FF" feeling.

off topic but yeah, wanted to voice a concern

well it's difficult to say how end game will work. if it's like 1.0, mages more easily get spell damage, than melees getting physical damage. So even if CNJ spells have rather low potency, they might end up doing more damage than melee classes end-game.
if their power and potency was high from the beginning, they'd be to OP later on.
we'll see how it goes at higher levels ^^

[Radacci]

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.

People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better.

Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

like others stated, WHM in some of those games were just WHM and nothing else. If WHM was just WHM here, having 16 skills of it's own, that'd be an entirely different thing; then it wouldn't make sense for it to have elemental skills; it would make more sense if they only had Holy/Astral spells. But now it's based on CNJ, so it's inevitable; because CNJ with astral spells don't make sense.
And i'm sure in Rydias case it wasn't that SMN itself had access too WHM/BLM spells, but rather that Rydia herself was SMN/WHM/BLM, and could mix spells, like we could in 1.0
Imagine how stupid it would be if Yuna could ONLY summon, and nothing else? she would be largely useless in most fights; or make all other party members useless.
And imagine if Rydia could summon everything, use high lv WHM spells like Rosa, and BLM spells like...Vivi? Overpowered much?

[faris]

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.
People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better. Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

[faris]

And i'm sure in Rydias case it wasn't that SMN itself had access too WHM/BLM spells, but rather that Rydia herself was SMN/WHM/BLM, and could mix spells, like we could in 1.0
Imagine how stupid it would be if Yuna could ONLY summon, and nothing else? she would be largely useless in most fights; or make all other party members useless.
And imagine if Rydia could summon everything, use high lv WHM spells like Rosa, and BLM spells like...Vivi? Overpowered much?

Exactly. Rydia got black magic in FF4 because at the end of the game, you have no black mage as well.

[Shougun]

I find this most troubling because BLM is a DD he cant just run around and cure if his spells are elemental reisted like the WHM. Which means in boss fights and such elemental resistances need to mean nothing else the BLM becomes useless (and as we've seen this is partially true as BLM just lays out thunder, thunder, thunder, thunder what type of boss is it? dont care thunder thunder thunder thunder).


I'd love to see the BLM have the wheel just so we can not totally destroy a class based on elements or totally destroy the elemental wheel on EG content, as WHM can heal and DD well (if the monster is elementally weak to stone but people think the BLM should be stuck to the three elements and getting nothing else to do if those dont cut it - I'm not getting that).


Also OP, and pretty much -everyone- else that suggested WHM lose their elemental skills made sure to give WHM non-elemental skills that continued their DD ability. However there are some who think that BLM and WHM can share and I think thats legitimate as well - there is no reason why an element cant be considered for DD and protection I mean even on the WHM itself you have stone the spell and stoneskin the defense.

Also as a matter of FF lore BLM has had the whole wheel before, WHM has had parts of the wheel, and sometimes both could learn both - and in FFXIV itself I dont remember any part of the game saying "stone is only for WHM because its a non destructive destructive magic (wtf? lol)"

[Mychael]

I'd love to see the BLM have the wheel just so we can not totally destroy a class based on elements or totally destroy the elemental wheel on EG content, as WHM can heal and DD well (if the monster is elementally weak to stone but people think the BLM should be stuck to the three elements and getting nothing else to do if those dont cut it - I'm not getting that).


Also OP, and pretty much -everyone- else that suggested WHM lose their elemental skills made sure to give WHM non-elemental skills that continued their DD ability. However there are some who think that BLM and WHM can share and I think thats legitimate as well - there is no reason why an element cant be considered for DD and protection I mean even on the WHM itself you have stone the spell and stoneskin the defense.

I think everyone who has argued to remove elemental nukes from CNJ has also been specifically saying to fix THM/BLM's spells to make them useful in any situation.

[Shougun]

I think everyone who has argued to remove elemental nukes from CNJ has also been specifically saying to fix THM/BLM's spells to make them useful in any situation.

Well yeah I want the BLM to have spells useful in any situation by ---following--- the elemental wheel. Now that we have like 90 slots we can have many more spells so SE can stop condensing the BLM into "aoe fire" "single target lightning" "debuff ice".



Because I dont want to be casting thunder for the rest of my BLM lifetime.

Unlike the WHM, BLM is only DD - so we shouldnt be talking like WHM needs to be on par with BLM. BLM needs to swamp WHM in DD- but everyone will cry if the BLM says "i'm going support" because WHM swamps BLM in support (which is already true lol). The BLM swamps WHM in a small average, and most obvious on thunder weak monsters but WHM can and will out damage a BLM on stone weak monsters lol.