Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[faris]

Not happening.

As it's been stated, if you bother to play the old FF games you'll see whms have wind, water and earth elemental magic.
Furthermore, we're playing a MMO. The whms you see in non-MMO FF games which have nothing but cures and divine magic also have parties of competent damage dealers and are designed to act as a support role in that team. MMO characters do not log in with 3-4 other characters capable of killing stuff.

The only MMO I can think of with whms forgoing all elemental magic is XI, which made up for it by making whm viable for solo with gear / really good skill in clubs. Even XI's solo whms did not spam banish/holy/banishga for damage. They dualwielded clubs, paid outrageous prices for the kraken club and subbed ninja for Utsusemi.

What you're asking for will gimp whm and make it party only in XIV since XIV doesn't have an armory system that can support skill ranks in certain weapons or dual classes, making solo play as whm impossible.

[Alaltus]

Black Mage already had it's chance to have all the elemental spells back when Conjurer or Thaumaturge were in line for the job, the player's voices were heard and SE made their choice. Guess who got Black Mage? Sorry but Conjurer should not sacrifice even 1 element to any other Mage let alone all 3 to Thaumaturge. There are plenty of other spells in the Black Mage library SE can dust off if it comes to it.

[Yrusama]

TL;DR, but THIS:

Quake especially.

Can we have a Float spell later on, please? And more damage floors like Aurum Vale so it doesn't go to waste? I'll understand if not. ._.

[DardGhalawad]

We are forgetting a few details about mages class/jobs.

CNJ - healer, buffer
WHM - healer, buffer, party debuffer, enemy stranding control

* WHM should be a job especialized on: Spirits (ghosts) type, Demon type and Undead type mobs.

THM - nuker, dotter
BLM - nuker, dotter, enemy debuffer, enemy stranding control

* BLM should be a job especialized on: Elemental spirits, and mob elemental weakness.

I'm just meanning that WHM is lacking on spell content like BLM. Yoshi should do a deep investigation on these 2 jobs to balance them properly, making them unique to have in party. Also the concept of WHM been a dotter in the absence of a BLM is also a good concept, but make it impossible to be it in a presence of a BLM. That way jobs rules will not be about multy-tasking.

[whoopeeragon]

Ice could be used to reflect sunlight, in case it would for some reason become to warm; So you would save the forest from dying from heat, or burning.

As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.

You're assuming the block of ice around you would last forever...it wouldn't; it would melt and nourish the forest.

That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.

And ice destroys everything every winter anyways, then it's reborn.

You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.

I was just pointing out that any element can be both destructive and protective. So it wouldn't make sense for water to be CNJ specific, and ice BLM specific.
For all purposes CNJ could use all elements also, but in protective manner; and BLM could use all elements in a destructive manner.

But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.

Hmm and i suppose Leviathans main purpose is healing *Sarcasm off*

And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.

Cure isn't water elemental, and neither is protect. And i don't see how water would be better at protection than ice anyways? water won't stop an arrow, a wall of ice would

Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.

Not to mention to much water kill plants.

Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?

Ofc Ice is destructive, as is all other elements, but all elements can also be beneficial; so you can argue with me as much as you want about it, but it wont change the facts

The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.

Stone became weaker than in 1.0 it has potency of 80. lancer skills have 100-200. So lancer is 2-3 times stronger than CNJ. in 1.0 is was kinda the other way around.

I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

[Radacci]

As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.



That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.



You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.



But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.



And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.



Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.



Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?



The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.



I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

i'm pretty sure there's not a lot of bush fires going on during winter.

still plants revive after winter; and so does some insects; even after being wrapped up in ice, and frozen solid, all winter.

cryostasis, extending life; Even though it takes some extra stuff to make it work.

It's always mortal heroes that conquer evil. And mortals can become powerful enough to kill Leviathan, or even Bahamut.

i'm not saying water isn't life sustaining, i'm just saying it's as destructive. Meaning that you can use it for either; so CNJ could use water in a beneficial way, BLM in a destructive way. one does not rule out the other.

you're going to extremes when you say BLM shouldn't have access to water spells, because BLM use destruction spells, and somehow water isn't?
The sun is fire, without it we wouldn't live, without it's warmth we would freeze to death, without it's light nothing would grow.
There lives organisms in volcanic vents, in comets, and glaciers. There's organisms that are hydrophobic and would die from water.

you are so narrowminded i was simply pointing out the difference in power between CNJ and Lancer; and that stone didn't become stronger; it's pretty much the same. It's rather that the other spells were made weaker. On a side-note aero is DOT, so you can debate that aero is stronger than stone.
The damage difference between water/aero and stone is negligible, because random damage, and potency doesn't do much when dealing with low damage.

Prevent floods? Glaciers can carve out the land...stuff; i'm sure ice and glaciers have done plenty of good stuff through the ages. Even if it comes down to water in the end, water in itself wouldn't be sufficient.

[Vanguard319]

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

[NoloeTazier]

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.

In saying that, I feel as though the whole spell system needs to have another serious look at. Spells should be decided on elemental weakness, not whether you are "killing 1 mob" (thunder) or you are "killing multiple mobs" (fire). Also let's face it, the ice spells suck donkey penis.

I would like to see the old mechanic return of Fire & Fira being single target, and Firaga being aoe (same goes with the other elements). You could do this across all 6 elements quite easily (with an animation rework of course). If you still wanted to give additional effects, you could do this within the element but I do believe that the reason to cast spells should be based on enemy weaknesses.

truly do hope that we see the classic FF elements return, instead of it becoming a bland "fire to aoe, thunder to single target", and never see anything else cast.

It's a Mage problem period.

[DardGhalawad]

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.





It's a Mage problem period.

Totally agree with that statement. Here's a like :P

[Radacci]

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.





It's a Mage problem period.

Wouldn't make much sense for CNJ to use holy spells...now if WHM was seperate class, then that'd be another thing.
As lv cap goes up, WHM might learn more holy/astral type spells; dealing with undead/umbral mobs.