Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[faris]

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.
People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better. Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

[Reika]

You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

It is the case where people want X version of whm, because you and others keep bringing up the whm in FF title that can use aero and stone as an example to justify FFXIV's whm being able to use aero and stone. Anyone can use another FF to justify why and people have been doing just that.

Just like there are versions of blm where blm have EVERY element at their disposal. I'll be happy if they do just that thus un-#$(@#$ blm mage.

[faris]

It is the case where people want X version of whm, because you and others keep bringing up the whm in FF title that can use aero and stone as an example to justify FFXIV's whm being able to use aero and stone. Anyone can use another FF to justify why and people have been doing just that.

Just like there are versions of blm where blm have EVERY element at their disposal.

You can't read, I give up.

[Radacci]

Well yeah I want the BLM to have spells useful in any situation by ---following--- the elemental wheel. Now that we have like 90 slots we can have many more spells so SE can stop condensing the BLM into "aoe fire" "single target lightning" "debuff ice".

Because I dont want to be casting thunder for the rest of my BLM lifetime.

Unlike the WHM, BLM is only DD - so we shouldnt be talking like WHM needs to be on par with BLM. BLM needs to swamp WHM in DD- but everyone will cry if the BLM says "i'm going support" because WHM swamps BLM in support (which is already true lol). The BLM swamps WHM in a small average, and most obvious on thunder weak monsters but WHM can and will out damage a BLM on stone weak monsters lol.

What 90 slots are you talking about?
If BLM was superior DPS in every situation, it would make all other DPS classes obsolete; there were already cases in 1.0 where you just stack BLM. It was WAR and BLM, or gtfo -.- I certainly don't want that scenario in ARR.
But i agree, it was mostly just chaining lightning, or fire for AOE. But it wasn't actually much different for other classes. most had just 2-3 combos you use most of the time

[Shougun]

What 90 slots are you talking about?
If BLM was superior DPS in every situation, it would make all other DPS classes obsolete; there were already cases in 1.0 where you just stack BLM. It was WAR and BLM, or gtfo -.- I certainly don't want that scenario in ARR.
But i agree, it was mostly just chaining lightning, or fire for AOE. But it wasn't actually much different for other classes. most had just 2-3 combos you use most of the time

Lol I meant we get multiple bars and the bar itself is easier to manage. 1.0's was a pia.


So we can have two rows of abilities up at the same time.


BLM should always be superior to WHM in DPS. Except maybe for undead. I liked in the first page a suggestion to give WHM turn undead spell so they can nuke with their white magic - it wouldnt be as efficient right away as BLM since BLM wouldn't need to load up the buff but it could make WHM do good damage once loaded (making WHM feel like they have nice numbers (large numbers) but because of the magic buff needing to be applied would still make BLM superior since BLM would go straight to the dps like other dps classes )


Of course between DPS like classes BLM, DRG, and MNK they should be balanced.

[Radacci]

Lol I meant we get multiple bars and the bar itself is easier to manage. 1.0's was a pia.


So we can have two rows of abilities up at the same time.


BLM should always be superior to WHM in DPS. Except maybe for undead. I liked in the first page a suggestion to give WHM turn undead spell so they can nuke with their white magic - it wouldnt be as efficient right away as BLM since BLM wouldn't need to load up the buff but it could make WHM do good damage once loaded (making WHM feel like they have nice numbers (large numbers) but because of the magic buff needing to be applied would still make BLM superior since BLM would go straight to the dps like other dps classes )


Of course between DPS like classes BLM, DRG, and MNK they should be balanced.

I'm pretty sure i heard they are sticking with the 16 skills/class
I'm also pretty sure that BLM spells have higher potency than WHM, so the issue will fix itself.
Your suggestion would only make sense if there actually was any significant nr of undeads in the game, where such a mechanic would be useful; otherwise it would feel like a waste of skill slot. Would be fun with some undead FATE, where WHM is DPS instead of BLM

[Shougun]

I'm pretty sure i heard they are sticking with the 16 skills/class
I'm also pretty sure that BLM spells have higher potency than WHM, so the issue will fix itself.
Your suggestion would only make sense if there actually was any significant nr of undeads in the game, where such a mechanic would be useful; otherwise it would feel like a waste of skill slot. Would be fun with some undead FATE, where WHM is DPS instead of BLM

Oh the turn undead spell takes a NOT undead monster and makes them behave like they are undead ( I believe the effect is called "zombie"). Then the WHM can use cure and raise on them and slap them silly. Also funny to use on bosses that try to cure themselves XD


Yeah I really dont like having equal number of skills / job / class thing I dont care so long as each class and job has been made to play both fun and balanced. Like giving BLM an aoe version of all their spells or a spell like prism (turns spells aoe but for offense spells only) then so be it, it should happen.


Its lame fire got stuck to aoe, blizzard to debuff aoe and lightning to single target dps. Casting the same damn spells over again lol

[Radacci]

Oh the turn undead spell takes a NOT undead monster and makes them behave like they are undead ( I believe the effect is called "zombie"). Then the WHM can use cure and raise on them and slap them silly. Also funny to use on bosses that try to cure themselves XD

oh ok, and it would be quite annoying if mobs cast zombie on your party, and WHM whipes party with curaga
raise on mobs sounds excessive and OP

[Kinseykinz]

Lol I meant we get multiple bars and the bar itself is easier to manage. 1.0's was a pia.


So we can have two rows of abilities up at the same time.


BLM should always be superior to WHM in DPS. Except maybe for undead. I liked in the first page a suggestion to give WHM turn undead spell so they can nuke with their white magic - it wouldnt be as efficient right away as BLM since BLM wouldn't need to load up the buff but it could make WHM do good damage once loaded (making WHM feel like they have nice numbers (large numbers) but because of the magic buff needing to be applied would still make BLM superior since BLM would go straight to the dps like other dps classes )


Of course between DPS like classes BLM, DRG, and MNK they should be balanced.

Again, peoples main problem is they don't like how BLM plays...that's an entirely valid point...but butchering CNJ/WHM which IS working well and balanced at the moment, to achieve more dynamic Black Mage play is simply not going to happen...nor should it.

As to the 'BLM should always be superior to WHM in DPS except for maybe undead.' There would be people who find that unfair too. They would then want WHM's 'undead-killing' spells on Black Mage because, 'hey, it's unfair that White Mage has a decent damage dealing spell Black Mage could also enjoy.'

The main problem people are having is that they want this game's battle mechanics (at least spell mechanics) to match FFXI...this is not that game. Therefore, it IS okay and balanced for BLM to not carry all the spells...please point out what endgame content in 1.0 people could'nt use BLM's effectively in. Other jobs in this game have the same issue. I don't see monks whining that they are missing some of the elemental fists....again, we don't know what will happen in ARR or once level cap is raised, but at the moment, giving BLM access to ALL the elemental spells would either make BLM overpowered OR make the spells seem highly gimp...then people would complain that blm has lack-luster spells...

I've stated earlier why the spells are divided amongst the Mage-classes/jobs the way they are. If people are unhappy with blm flexibility, that is fair...but BLM's problems have nothing to do with WHM's graces. Ask for them to fix Black Mage...there are OTHER spells/abilities/mp costs/ cooldowns/etc BLM could use that would balance the roles out.

[Shougun]

Again, peoples main problem is they don't like how BLM plays...that's an entirely valid point...but butchering CNJ/WHM which IS working well and balanced at the moment, to achieve more dynamic Black Mage play is simply not going to happen...nor should it.

As to the 'BLM should always be superior to WHM in DPS except for maybe undead.' There would be people who find that unfair too. They would then want WHM's 'undead-killing' spells on Black Mage because, 'hey, it's unfair that White Mage has a decent damage dealing spell Black Mage could also enjoy.'

The main problem people are having is that they want this game's battle mechanics (at least spell mechanics) to match FFXI...this is not that game. Therefore, it IS okay and balanced for BLM to not carry all the spells...please point out what endgame content in 1.0 people could'nt use BLM's effectively in. Other jobs in this game have the same issue. I don't see monks whining that they are missing some of the elemental fists....again, we don't know what will happen in ARR or once level cap is raised, but at the moment, giving BLM access to ALL the elemental spells would either make BLM overpowered OR make the spells seem highly gimp...then people would complain that blm has lack-luster spells...

I've stated earlier why the spells are divided amongst the Mage-classes/jobs the way they are. If people are unhappy with blm flexibility, that is fair...but BLM's problems have nothing to do with WHM's graces. Ask for them to fix Black Mage...there are OTHER spells/abilities/mp costs/ cooldowns/etc BLM could use that would balance the roles out.

I dont really care if WHM keeps their elementals, or loses them (though I know the lore says CNJ has them so in that manor its not a good idea to remove it from CNJ). I dont repeat it every post but if you read all my posts you would know lol


I want to see stone and aero on black mage so we can see stone and aero weak bosses - and you can say you can have stone weak bosses and leave it to WHM, but I never want to see WHM be a "main nuker". That or they can give THM all his healing abilities back, maybe they did..


Of course right now bosses are rather elemental ambivalent as you can cast thunder on everything lol.