Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Radacci]

I'll answer your last segment first:

In nature, have you EVER seen ice nuture or make anything grow? Conjurers use their arts to protect the elementals and the forests - that means nuturing and maintaining the ecosystems in the forests, so to speak. Ice as protection around yourself still destroys the environment around you, yet doesn't provide the opportunity for said environment to revive itself. I speak in terms of the lore, as always when it comes to this. If we were to just talk about protection, we could have <insert element>skin, since ALL elements are capable of defending the user.

Also, I never mentioned to keep fire and lightning class-specific. I only ask for water and ice, so your relation to fire heating somebody frozen to death (which further my points about ice being destructive) is moot.

Now for water - yes, in some other universe, it would be so. However, water in THIS lore and game is mostly of the beneficial type, not to be used for heavy damage output. SE have already reached a compromise, making the Water spell a knock-back effect with low damage. I suppose I worded it wrong - for a BLM to utilise an element which is more orientated to regenerative purposes will result in a less-than-satisfied result. Not exactly 'mental' pressure, but it wouldn't result in a working ability with a BLM's damage dealing aspect in mind.

Shougun - if you used cold to calm your mind, why not use the cooling aspect of water rather than ice? Chilling your brain is very different from calming your brain. I just don't see BLM using water which is quite restorative-heavy in the game's lore as a heavy source of ability.

Ice could be used to reflect sunlight, in case it would for some reason become to warm; So you would save the forest from dying from heat, or burning.
You're assuming the block of ice around you would last forever...it wouldn't; it would melt and nourish the forest.
And ice destroys everything every winter anyways, then it's reborn.

I was just pointing out that any element can be both destructive and protective. So it wouldn't make sense for water to be CNJ specific, and ice BLM specific.
For all purposes CNJ could use all elements also, but in protective manner; and BLM could use all elements in a destructive manner.

Hmm and i suppose Leviathans main purpose is healing *Sarcasm off*
Cure isn't water elemental, and neither is protect. And i don't see how water would be better at protection than ice anyways? water won't stop an arrow, a wall of ice would
Not to mention to much water kill plants.
Ofc Ice is destructive, as is all other elements, but all elements can also be beneficial; so you can argue with me as much as you want about it, but it wont change the facts

As for the debuff issue...I hope that with Arcanist coming out as the king of debuffs, it frees up the THM elements to be truly destructive in power. It seems to have worked with CNJ already (Stone lost its magic evasion debuff, and instead is more powerful in the alpha footage) so it could work with THM and it's Ice spells as well.

Stone became weaker than in 1.0 it has potency of 80. lancer skills have 100-200. So lancer is 2-3 times stronger than CNJ. in 1.0 is was kinda the other way around.

[whoopeeragon]

Ice could be used to reflect sunlight, in case it would for some reason become to warm; So you would save the forest from dying from heat, or burning.

As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.

You're assuming the block of ice around you would last forever...it wouldn't; it would melt and nourish the forest.

That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.

And ice destroys everything every winter anyways, then it's reborn.

You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.

I was just pointing out that any element can be both destructive and protective. So it wouldn't make sense for water to be CNJ specific, and ice BLM specific.
For all purposes CNJ could use all elements also, but in protective manner; and BLM could use all elements in a destructive manner.

But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.

Hmm and i suppose Leviathans main purpose is healing *Sarcasm off*

And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.

Cure isn't water elemental, and neither is protect. And i don't see how water would be better at protection than ice anyways? water won't stop an arrow, a wall of ice would

Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.

Not to mention to much water kill plants.

Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?

Ofc Ice is destructive, as is all other elements, but all elements can also be beneficial; so you can argue with me as much as you want about it, but it wont change the facts

The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.

Stone became weaker than in 1.0 it has potency of 80. lancer skills have 100-200. So lancer is 2-3 times stronger than CNJ. in 1.0 is was kinda the other way around.

I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

[Radacci]

As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.



That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.



You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.



But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.



And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.



Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.



Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?



The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.



I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

i'm pretty sure there's not a lot of bush fires going on during winter.

still plants revive after winter; and so does some insects; even after being wrapped up in ice, and frozen solid, all winter.

cryostasis, extending life; Even though it takes some extra stuff to make it work.

It's always mortal heroes that conquer evil. And mortals can become powerful enough to kill Leviathan, or even Bahamut.

i'm not saying water isn't life sustaining, i'm just saying it's as destructive. Meaning that you can use it for either; so CNJ could use water in a beneficial way, BLM in a destructive way. one does not rule out the other.

you're going to extremes when you say BLM shouldn't have access to water spells, because BLM use destruction spells, and somehow water isn't?
The sun is fire, without it we wouldn't live, without it's warmth we would freeze to death, without it's light nothing would grow.
There lives organisms in volcanic vents, in comets, and glaciers. There's organisms that are hydrophobic and would die from water.

you are so narrowminded i was simply pointing out the difference in power between CNJ and Lancer; and that stone didn't become stronger; it's pretty much the same. It's rather that the other spells were made weaker. On a side-note aero is DOT, so you can debate that aero is stronger than stone.
The damage difference between water/aero and stone is negligible, because random damage, and potency doesn't do much when dealing with low damage.

Prevent floods? Glaciers can carve out the land...stuff; i'm sure ice and glaciers have done plenty of good stuff through the ages. Even if it comes down to water in the end, water in itself wouldn't be sufficient.