Here we go again

[Valence]

"Put in the work to succeed."

Are we still talking about playing a game or trying to build an ambitious startup and sell it investors?

[Atma]

"Put in the work to succeed."

Are we still talking about playing a game or trying to build an ambitious startup and sell it investors?

"putting in the work" here is like spending 5-10 minutes to learn a new mechanic or something. It's not savage where you're spending days on something, it's going in, dying a few times, saying 'Oh! I need to kill that thing when it spawns" and then getting through it.

I mean at this juncture of the game, given we are level 100, I'd say if you blind run a dungeon on day 1 and no one dies, that dungeon is legitimately far too easy.

[Novarius]

"putting in the work" here is like spending 5-10 minutes to learn a new mechanic or something. It's not savage where you're spending days on something, it's going in, dying a few times, saying 'Oh! I need to kill that thing when it spawns" and then getting through it.

I mean at this juncture of the game, given we are level 100, I'd say if you blind run a dungeon on day 1 and no one dies, that dungeon is legitimately far too easy.

Exactly and sometimes you don't even need that long to parse what is going on, developing an awareness of what is going on during a mechanic is the key to succeeding and if you get it wrong you just adjust accordingly next time you encounter it, some examples from Meso Terminal Boss 2 to illustrate the thought process (from Tank POV):

Saws - "oh there's a saw behind me maybe I should step into a lane without a saw "- mech goes off I avoid the saw - "oh I'll do that again if they show up"
Spiked Balls - "hmmm there's no AOE telegraph but I probably shouldn't stand under one of these since if it falls it'll do damage so I'll stand between two of them" - gets hit by one - "oh the AOEs were larger than I expected next time I'll stand between two of the spiked balls but go further out towards the wall"

Sometimes I'd even recommend people stop pressing their buttons briefly if they're struggling so that they can see what's going on and analyse what is going on with a mechanic more easily...

[Novarius]

"Put in the work to succeed."

Are we still talking about playing a game or trying to build an ambitious startup and sell it investors?

Maybe this is a poor attempt at sarcasm, but what you've presented is a false equivalence, the effort you need to put in to succeed in dungeons is not that significant it's just that some people seem to want to coast/be carried through content without actually pulling their own weight...

[BlisteringFrost]

Maybe this is a poor attempt at sarcasm, but what you've presented is a false equivalence, the effort you need to put in to succeed in dungeons is not that significant it's just that some people seem to want to coast/be carried through content without actually pulling their own weight...

I would venture to say it is intended to be sarcastic, because the alternative is..... not great.

[Ser_Arven]

This thread has been crazy but I'm glad it blew up so SE can see that most people enjoy the current slight challenge and creative dungeon mechanics.

The term toxic casuals exists for a reason and this thread is that reason. Most high-end players or midcore players have polity made their point about why difficulty shouldn't be lowered and encouraged people struggling to try again and learn from failure. In return, we have been called "abelist," "elitist," and toxic. We have been demonised for supposedly getting all the content while the casuals starve like we don't get 4 savage fights every 8 months and maybe 2 ultimates an expansion, when casuals have dungeons (yes casual even Meso), hunts, occult crescent, cosmic exploration, fates, housing, normal raid and trials, extreme (yes many consider ex casual) mount farming and other activities.

No one here is victimising you, no one is toxic, all we are asking is that you try to learn and die a few times before asking for a nerf because so many game systems have been simplified and nerfed already and we don't want the devs to think this current spark of much needed creativity is misplaced.

[JadeCurtiss]

This thread has been crazy but I'm glad it blew up so SE can see that most people enjoy the current slight challenge and creative dungeon mechanics.

The term toxic casuals exists for a reason and this thread is that reason. Most high-end players or midcore players have polity made their point about why difficulty shouldn't be lowered and encouraged people struggling to try again and learn from failure. In return, we have been called "abelist," "elitist," and toxic. We have been demonised for supposedly getting all the content while the casuals starve like we don't get 4 savage fights every 8 months and maybe 2 ultimates an expansion, when casuals have dungeons (yes casual even Meso), hunts, occult crescent, cosmic exploration, fates, housing, normal raid and trials, extreme (yes many consider ex casual) mount farming and other activities.

No one here is victimising you, no one is toxic, all we are asking is that you try to learn and die a few times before asking for a nerf because so many game systems have been simplified and nerfed already and we don't want the devs to think this current spark of much needed creativity is misplaced.

My hope is they stay this course for at least another expansion because YoshiP himself has said too much friction has been removed and that's bad for engagement. That said, I think something like adding echo to dungeons after a certain point isn't unreasonable.

1 wipe - Nothing
2 wipes - 10% echo
3 wipes - 20% echo

Something like that, maybe different numbers.

[BlisteringFrost]

My hope is they stay this course for at least another expansion because YoshiP himself has said too much friction has been removed and that's bad for engagement. That said, I think something like adding echo to dungeons after a certain point isn't unreasonable.

1 wipe - Nothing
2 wipes - 10% echo
3 wipes - 20% echo

Something like that, maybe different numbers.

I'm perfectly fine with 1 or 2 or even 3 stacks of "auto raise when you fall" to make Trusts not immediately end a fight the moment your HP hits 0 while also enforcing you actually put in some modicum of effort to not just pretend you're a bot. Or, as you said, just give 'em echo for 20% more stats. But removing class nuances every expansion for the last 3 expansions for the sake of "accessibility" is absolutely not the play. WoW gave us "One Button" but they ensured it's an option. And you're punished for using it anyway with 20% longer GCD roll duration.

Meso Terminal was a good step. It's ONLY a step. Not a completion to the shift that needs to happen. But it's a good step.

[TaleraRistain]

My hope is they stay this course for at least another expansion because YoshiP himself has said too much friction has been removed and that's bad for engagement. That said, I think something like adding echo to dungeons after a certain point isn't unreasonable.

1 wipe - Nothing
2 wipes - 10% echo
3 wipes - 20% echo

Something like that, maybe different numbers.

They could just look into offering the options that they offer on solo instances to Duty Support runs and then set the Echo based on which is chosen. It wouldn't really matter if someone got gear or other drops and they could adjust the exp to account for the Echo to avoid the idea of someone spamming it for exp. I really don't care if someone wants to power through the dungeon with a high Echo so they can still see and experience the fights but not have to worry if their toe touches x or y mechanic.

I think that's a piece some are missing here. Some peeps who struggle don't want to just watch a cutscene. They still want the interactivity. But they have more difficulty with some of the split-second reactions or trouble seeing and figuring out the tells. So, just let them get hit by something and brush it off in a higher Echo run. They still get to run around and have fun in the fights and enjoy the game. And it won't really have an effect on everyone else because the normal dungeon won't have that Echo. They could also put in the multi-rez thing they've been doing in Duty Support trials but a high enough Echo might negate the need for that.