Here we go again

[Striker44]

At this point, I'd like:

* the removal of gear stats
* one button rotations
* a skip button for every expansion MSQ you own, with the ability to go back and wathc every cutscene I guess
* more housing districts
* more modern day clothing
* more hildebrand quest writing
* blitzball

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not trolling. I just really, really, really don't care anymore. It isn't a big jump from 10% friction to no friction whatsoever beyond opening the game and falling asleep on your keyboard.

In all seriousness, not being sarcastic, or trolling, or pithy either - it's time to cancel your sub and move on. If you're seriously saying this, you've found yourself in a toxic relationship with a video game that isn't healthy for anyone, including you. Go find another game that interests you and do what you find fun.

[Novarius]

"putting in the work" here is like spending 5-10 minutes to learn a new mechanic or something. It's not savage where you're spending days on something, it's going in, dying a few times, saying 'Oh! I need to kill that thing when it spawns" and then getting through it.

I mean at this juncture of the game, given we are level 100, I'd say if you blind run a dungeon on day 1 and no one dies, that dungeon is legitimately far too easy.

Exactly and sometimes you don't even need that long to parse what is going on, developing an awareness of what is going on during a mechanic is the key to succeeding and if you get it wrong you just adjust accordingly next time you encounter it, some examples from Meso Terminal Boss 2 to illustrate the thought process (from Tank POV):

Saws - "oh there's a saw behind me maybe I should step into a lane without a saw "- mech goes off I avoid the saw - "oh I'll do that again if they show up"
Spiked Balls - "hmmm there's no AOE telegraph but I probably shouldn't stand under one of these since if it falls it'll do damage so I'll stand between two of them" - gets hit by one - "oh the AOEs were larger than I expected next time I'll stand between two of the spiked balls but go further out towards the wall"

Sometimes I'd even recommend people stop pressing their buttons briefly if they're struggling so that they can see what's going on and analyse what is going on with a mechanic more easily...

[Novarius]

"Put in the work to succeed."

Are we still talking about playing a game or trying to build an ambitious startup and sell it investors?

Maybe this is a poor attempt at sarcasm, but what you've presented is a false equivalence, the effort you need to put in to succeed in dungeons is not that significant it's just that some people seem to want to coast/be carried through content without actually pulling their own weight...

[Haru304]

In all seriousness, not being sarcastic, or trolling, or pithy either - it's time to cancel your sub and move on. If you're seriously saying this, you've found yourself in a toxic relationship with a video game that isn't healthy for anyone, including you. Go find another game that interests you and do what you find fun.

Hm? Oh no, I'm 100% serious about all of the above, but I am enjoying the game's content. Here's a list of what I'm currently enjoying:

- gpose
- glamor
- role-playing
- housing
- pvp (because it requires no pretense of gearing whatsoever)

I wouldn't call it a toxic relationship but it has certainly evolved.

[BlisteringFrost]

Maybe this is a poor attempt at sarcasm, but what you've presented is a false equivalence, the effort you need to put in to succeed in dungeons is not that significant it's just that some people seem to want to coast/be carried through content without actually pulling their own weight...

I would venture to say it is intended to be sarcastic, because the alternative is..... not great.

[Ser_Arven]

This thread has been crazy but I'm glad it blew up so SE can see that most people enjoy the current slight challenge and creative dungeon mechanics.

The term toxic casuals exists for a reason and this thread is that reason. Most high-end players or midcore players have polity made their point about why difficulty shouldn't be lowered and encouraged people struggling to try again and learn from failure. In return, we have been called "abelist," "elitist," and toxic. We have been demonised for supposedly getting all the content while the casuals starve like we don't get 4 savage fights every 8 months and maybe 2 ultimates an expansion, when casuals have dungeons (yes casual even Meso), hunts, occult crescent, cosmic exploration, fates, housing, normal raid and trials, extreme (yes many consider ex casual) mount farming and other activities.

No one here is victimising you, no one is toxic, all we are asking is that you try to learn and die a few times before asking for a nerf because so many game systems have been simplified and nerfed already and we don't want the devs to think this current spark of much needed creativity is misplaced.

[JadeCurtiss]

This thread has been crazy but I'm glad it blew up so SE can see that most people enjoy the current slight challenge and creative dungeon mechanics.

The term toxic casuals exists for a reason and this thread is that reason. Most high-end players or midcore players have polity made their point about why difficulty shouldn't be lowered and encouraged people struggling to try again and learn from failure. In return, we have been called "abelist," "elitist," and toxic. We have been demonised for supposedly getting all the content while the casuals starve like we don't get 4 savage fights every 8 months and maybe 2 ultimates an expansion, when casuals have dungeons (yes casual even Meso), hunts, occult crescent, cosmic exploration, fates, housing, normal raid and trials, extreme (yes many consider ex casual) mount farming and other activities.

No one here is victimising you, no one is toxic, all we are asking is that you try to learn and die a few times before asking for a nerf because so many game systems have been simplified and nerfed already and we don't want the devs to think this current spark of much needed creativity is misplaced.

My hope is they stay this course for at least another expansion because YoshiP himself has said too much friction has been removed and that's bad for engagement. That said, I think something like adding echo to dungeons after a certain point isn't unreasonable.

1 wipe - Nothing
2 wipes - 10% echo
3 wipes - 20% echo

Something like that, maybe different numbers.

[BlisteringFrost]

My hope is they stay this course for at least another expansion because YoshiP himself has said too much friction has been removed and that's bad for engagement. That said, I think something like adding echo to dungeons after a certain point isn't unreasonable.

1 wipe - Nothing
2 wipes - 10% echo
3 wipes - 20% echo

Something like that, maybe different numbers.

I'm perfectly fine with 1 or 2 or even 3 stacks of "auto raise when you fall" to make Trusts not immediately end a fight the moment your HP hits 0 while also enforcing you actually put in some modicum of effort to not just pretend you're a bot. Or, as you said, just give 'em echo for 20% more stats. But removing class nuances every expansion for the last 3 expansions for the sake of "accessibility" is absolutely not the play. WoW gave us "One Button" but they ensured it's an option. And you're punished for using it anyway with 20% longer GCD roll duration.

Meso Terminal was a good step. It's ONLY a step. Not a completion to the shift that needs to happen. But it's a good step.

[Asari5]

thats exactly why people will never gonna come to an agreement. casuals calling dungeons hardcore because they died a few times and hardcore players calling extremes casual because they are used to ultimates.

it would be easier if people first think of a more objective point of view before labeling stuff subjectively.

[Novarius]

thats exactly why people will never gonna come to an agreement. casuals calling dungeons hardcore because they died a few times and hardcore players calling extremes casual because they are used to ultimates.

it would be easier if people first think of a more objective point of view before labeling stuff subjectively.

Well despite having cleared Ultimates, I wouldn't necessarily consider EXs "casual" content, whilst I may be able to succeed relatively quickly after skimming through a raidplan and jumping in, they are very much a YMMV situation depending on your previous experience and overall skill level, although some of the easier EXs may be considered casual (especially roles with less individual responsibility)... I find it disingenuous when people say that Normal dungeon mechanics are DDR and very fast when this simply isn't the case, generally you have a lot of time to react to them, people are trying to use the AOEs to guide them when they need to look for other tells earlier on instead in some cases... if they were talking about EXs their argument would be more credible, take EX5 for instance, it has a noticeably faster cadence compared to the MSQ version and it layers mechanics it a more complex way by storing them for later or starting up other mechanics as other ones are resolving or mechanics containing multiple elements that you need to pay attention to throughout a setpiece... I wouldn't necessarily classify EX5 as "casual" casual players may be able to complete it but it may be a steep learning curve for some due to how it ups the ante from the Normal version...