#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Supersnow845]

Like I said WHM relies more heavily on its partner than just about any other pair of classes. WHM is good at pure healing which is basically never needed and bad at mitigation which is always needed. Having to heavily rely on the shield healer doesn’t make it viable, it just increases the stress on the shield healer. WHM simply doesn’t have enough mitigation to compensate for the fact that healers in this game are basically glorified mitigators.

AST gets 3 mitigations per 2 minutes plus an ability to spam shields, WHM gets 2 and they both HAVE to near overlap for some ungodly reason, it’s mitigation capabilities are weaker than some DPS classes and more rigid than any other class in the game (every other class has at least one mitigation on a shorter CD than WHM)

AST and the shield healers simply do not struggle with throughput enough to warrant WHM having so little in the way of useful mitigation in the 1 in 10,000 chance that WHM’s higher HPS might save a run over AST who near equals it in HPS. Thats why I drew the comparison to double regens, because they show that WHM has a deficit. Double shields were meta basically all of EW and only aren’t now because AST is so ridiculous on the damage front. Double regens on the other hand are a meme comp, and AST has basically twice the functional mitigation of WHM. Anecdotal I know but I don’t know a single shield healer main who actively wants a WHM over an AST, hell half of them want the other shield healer over WHM

It’s just very hard to see if you haven’t seen it from the shield healers side that WHM is very good at making you think you are contributing while in reality you are just making the shield healers job harder, doing 80% of the “work” AST does forcing the shield healers to do 120% to keep up

And this isn’t even actually WHM’s fault, it has strengths but square refuses to design encounters to play to them. I’d rather square ups damage to make WHM’s contribution more useful over making it a pseudo shield healer like AST, but until they do that WHM just doesn’t bring anything to the table

[Kohashi]

Like I said WHM relies more heavily on its partner than just about any other pair of classes. WHM is good at pure healing which is basically never needed and bad at mitigation which is always needed. Having to heavily rely on the shield healer doesn’t make it viable, it just increases the stress on the shield healer. WHM simply doesn’t have enough mitigation to compensate for the fact that healers in this game are basically glorified mitigators.

what?????? What 3 mits/ 2 minutes? Are you counting CU twice?

Also, I have NEVER seen 2 AST in a party in high-end content, just the same way I have never seen 2 WHM, why would you even want or measure the class design on such a flawed premise? What's even the point of it?

I am seriously debating wether you ever did any high content where you weren't severely overcapped for it because it sounds to me that way.

The reason why AST has "3" mitigations is that it severely lacks burst heal, while WHM does not, so it needs to buy time for the regen or spells, to reach its full potential.

As for the :

It’s just very hard to see if you haven’t seen it from the shield healers side that WHM is very good at making you think you are contributing while in reality you are just making the shield healers job harder, doing 80% of the “work” AST does forcing the shield healers to do 120% to keep up

Their entire existence, AST or WHM, is to fill in gaps. AST or WHM will always be secondary and in the background, while shields are the main healers. Even if you are AST, will will NEVER be the main healer. You exist to provide HP and restore whatever is left after shield healers did their stuff for the mechanic. Both AST and WHM do that just fine and approach the issue differently. It doesn't mean AST or WHM are useless just because they are in the "background". Each has to do their role equally to provide.

[ForsakenRoe]

what?????? What 3 mits/ 2 minutes? Are you counting CU twice?

Also, I have NEVER seen 2 AST in a party in high-end content, just the same way I have never seen 2 WHM, why would you even want or measure the class design on such a flawed premise? What's even the point of it?

I am seriously debating wether you ever did any high content where you weren't severely overcapped for it because it sounds to me that way.

The reason why AST has "3" mitigations is that it severely lacks burst heal, while WHM does not, so it needs to buy time for the regen or spells, to reach its full potential.

Their entire existence, AST or WHM, is to fill in gaps. AST or WHM will always be secondary and in the background, while shields are the main healers. Even if you are AST, will will NEVER be the main healer. You exist to provide HP and restore whatever is left after shield healers did their stuff for the mechanic. Both AST and WHM do that just fine and approach the issue differently. It doesn't mean AST or WHM are useless just because they are in the "background". Each has to do their role equally to provide.

Doing a run where you have two of the same healer would be quite the meme. But I have seen logs for such runs uploaded, so clearly some people try to take on the challenge. It is quite undisputable IMO, that if you were to try for whatever reason, you'd have far more success/be able to clear far more, with less overgearing required, with 2 ASTS than you would with 2 WHMs. Being able to rotate between 4 total CU uses per 2mins, plus having 40s of uptime on Neutral Sect, and 2 Sun Signs between them, means that AST simply has far more versatility in how it mitigates. And that is the crux of WHM's issues. The lack of mitigation options means that the SCH or SGE is forced into using a more rigid plan of where to use what. With an AST in a coordinated environment, the SCH/SGE has the potential to say 'okay, you can CU this, which frees me up to move my stuff from here, to this part instead'.

Only sometimes, is 'AST/WHM there to provide HP and restore what is left after shield healers do their stuff for the mechanic', because sometimes, the shield healer ends up doing the HP restoration too. For example, I have a couple fo reclear logs that end up looking like this:



This isn't me getting chadded either, I got a purple here. SGE just happens to fart out healing with every button it presses, even if it doesn't want to heal at that moment. Kerachole, for example, is a larger portion of my HPS because of the attached regen, than the mitigation aspect of it.



Here's one from M8S, where me and the cohealer both were pretty equal both on damage and on healing parse, the amount of actual healing is alarmingly close considering Pure Healers are meant to be the ones that handle it more. It is also undeniable that the amount of tools that a double Pure comp has would not let a party clear the fight (probably even with more gear), but a SCH/SGE has enough throughput, even when in minimum ILVL gear, to get through the HPS checks of the fight. Because this game is entirely comprised of mit checks, even things that look like HPS checks, like the 8hit stack marker, are actually mit checks in disguise. SE needs to come up with a way to incentivize pure healing throughput more, in a way that can't be affected by mitigation being applied

fair

Also, what optimisation? Those 2 spells are reskinned versions of atonement, nothing else. You still execute them in the same order.

Atonement is 460p, Supplication 500, Sepulchre 540p. The Holy Spirit proc is also 500p. Ideally, you'd want to put the harder of the hits into your FOF window, which means trying to avoid having Atonement itself be in there

[Kohashi]

Doing a run where you have two of the same healer would be quite the meme. But I have seen logs for such runs uploaded, so clearly some people try to take on the challenge. It is quite undisputable IMO, that if you were to try for whatever reason, you'd have far more success/be able to clear far more, with less overgearing required, with 2 ASTS than you would with 2 WHMs. Being able to rotate between 4 total CU uses per 2mins, plus having 40s of uptime on Neutral Sect, and 2 Sun Signs between them, means that AST simply has far more versatility in how it mitigates. And that is the crux of WHM's issues. The lack of mitigation options means that the SCH or SGE is forced into using a more rigid plan of where to use what. With an AST in a coordinated environment, the SCH/SGE has the potential to say 'okay, you can CU this, which frees me up to move my stuff from here, to this part instead'.

It's maybe more comfy, but not all that much. Also, those meme runs are not done by prog teams or random people in PF. They are done in very controlled environments by very knowledgeable people.

Only sometimes, is 'AST/WHM there to provide HP and restore what is left after shield healers do their stuff for the mechanic', because sometimes, the shield healer ends up doing the HP restoration too. For example, I have a couple fo reclear logs that end up looking like this:

My dude, please....



Your synergy with the WHM was 0. You were just pressing buttons with 0 regard of your co-healer or plan which is understandable since it is PF.

Also, comparing M8s with M5s is really unfair since M8s has vastly more damage and offers a lot more healing opportunities. People are already better geared and don't take as much damage in M5s.

[ForsakenRoe]

My dude, please....

Your synergy with the WHM was 0. You were just pressing buttons with 0 regard of your co-healer or plan which is understandable since it is PF.

Also, comparing M8s with M5s is really unfair since M8s has vastly more damage and offers a lot more healing opportunities. People are already better geared and don't take as much damage in M5s.

Ough do we really have to do this, this early in the morning?

- Yes, I pressed actual barrier GCDs. I do not know why. Maybe I was several pulls deep and tired of wiping to things, maybe I misplayed a couple of places and had to panic-barrier to make up for the misplayed mit, maybe I just didn't care enough to tryhard on that pull because I had no energy that day. I dunno. But the portion of the GCD that is being called 'overheal' here is the healing part, not the barrier part. So, yeh, I applied barriers (to be safe), while the party was already at full HP. Sue me.

- Haimatinon and Panhaimatinon refer to the healing upon the effect's expiration. Are you saying I should have known that my cohealer was going to heal everyone to full before they expired, and not used those actions for their primary purpose (mitigation)?

- Holos gets used for mitigation, not my problem that SE decided to attach a 300p heal to it. What, am I meant to say 'oh wait I'll not use Holos for the 300p barrier and 10% mit here, because everyone's full HP already. Wouldn't want to overheal!'

- Physis is a 60s CD and is completely free. It also amplifies the potency of all the other healing tools. It'd be stupid not to press it, even if it does partially end up as overheal. If it does end up as overheal, it's likely because of an overzealous cohealer topping everyone off before the HOT does its work.

- Pneuma is damage neutral. The first can't really be considered 'overheal' (it was 46% overheal on the GNB, and only the GNB, for some reason), the second was a Swiftcast-Pneuma to try and save some people after a B-Side laser, it barely kept me and one other alive but the MCH died due to being at a lower HP amount after the B-Side than me or the BLM. Maybe gear difference, I don't remember. Either way, I LB'd after it happened to avoid the Weaknesses. Third Pneuma was right at the end of the fight in between the final two Celebrate Good Times raidwides (going into enrage) just to make sure we were all full HP to close out the kill, and considering I threw Zoe on it, I can only assume I was in a state of 'get me out of this damn fight' at the time.

- Philosophia was used going into Funky Floor, to heal after the damage of Disco Inferno without needing to worry about my distance from allies (so I can start making my way towards my spotlight). Once everyone was full HP, yes, additional procs of Eudaimonia were overheal. To avoid that would require not pressing my damage buttons. The second was dumped at the end of the fight, because why not. The Pneuma at the same time was probably enough, but it's a free button and the fight's ending anyway so why not.

Also of note is that I used like, half of the amount of potential uses of these actions. I could have had 3 Philosophia uses, I got 2 (and one was a meme at the end). I could have had 4 uses of Pneuma, I had 3. I could have had another Panhaima somewhere, or another 7 Soterias, or I could have actually pressed Krasis even a single time, but I did not. I used my kit at like, half its potential output, and it's getting me '0 synergy with the WHM' talk.

If this comment is true:

Their entire existence, AST or WHM, is to fill in gaps. AST or WHM will always be secondary and in the background, while shields are the main healers. Even if you are AST, will will NEVER be the main healer. You exist to provide HP and restore whatever is left after shield healers did their stuff for the mechanic.

Surely that means that it's the WHM that had '0 synergy' with me, given that a lot of the SGE kit takes time to apply its healing (Haima/Pan expiration, Eudaimonia procs, Physis, Kerakeia)? I did 'my stuff', and then the WHM occasionally pressed something like Rapture, or Assize, and oops now the delayed healing effect of the SGE is considered overhealing. Though saying that, the WHM also had only 6 casts of Rapture, so their HPS could have also been FAR higher than it was. They weren't doing the 'prep Misery to use in raidbuffs' thing, and if they were, both me and them would have presumably had even more overhealing.


If you want the M8S example, here you go:

Hmm those overheal numbers look pretty comparable, despite the extra damage and more healing required on average, I'd say. I just happened to press the GCD barrier more times, but still had less overheal with it. I imagine the 'overwritten' ones come from places like the Tracking Tremors (applying a new one before the stack mark takes the old one off) or the mit check right after the adds. Also:



Again, didn't use all of my everything, else my overheal would be even higher again.

Lastly, both me and my coheal in this run got purples on damage (me 81/them 94) and grey/green on healing (me 21/them 27). Could coordination/'synergy' be higher? Sure. But it was again a PF, and everyone just wants to get their reclears done and move on. Even so, I'd say that us both having sub-30 Healing parses means that we pretty effectively divided the healing requirements between us, but still, I had more in the tank that I could have used (which would have also ended up as overheal).

Overheal isn't necessarily 'bad', unless it causes another problem down the line. For example, using an Indom on SCH that is 100% overheal, bad, because that could have been an Energy Drain. Using an Ixochole on SGE that is 100% overheal, not only is it 'not bad' (assuming that you don't need the Addersgall for anything else) and you're not punished at all (because it costs you no damage to use), it actually slightly rewards you, because it gives you 700MP back. Wasting Addersgall on pure overheal, sometimes, is actually mandatory for your MP economy, which is a bit weird a design IMO but that's how SE's gone and made it

And why are you feeding my logs into the 'you did this and this wrong' machine anyway? Next time please at least have the courtesy to check the log yourself for my mistakes instead of outsourcing it

[Kohashi]

Ough do we really have to do this, this early in the morning?

Holy mother of wall of text...lol. Wrap it up next time, please.

Overall, I don't care why you did what you did. I wanted to show that the point you were trying to make was just rubbish and the example was just bad and disingenuous.

The reason why you got a purple parse was because you were spamming your abilities on top of people being overgeared. This is further supported by the fact that you had 4 deaths + 4 damage downs, yet you have cleared and didn't even hit enrage. Clear time was 9:52, and the enrage timer is 9:54, with 10:06 being the wipe.

As for analyzing the log it's just easier to see the overall overheal and which sources contributed to it. FFlogs is more precise but more tedious as I didn't care about time stamps or mechanics.

And yes I am well aware how SGE works and their MP economy, and speaking of which, you have used 0 rizomata and you left your adersal overcap 4 times. The same thing can be said about your M8's example.

Anyway... It's M5s.. and it's already late in the tier, you don't have to perfectly play the fight.

[Lorika]

Like I said WHM relies more heavily on its partner than just about any other pair of classes. WHM is good at pure healing which is basically never needed and bad at mitigation which is always needed. Having to heavily rely on the shield healer doesn’t make it viable, it just increases the stress on the shield healer. WHM simply doesn’t have enough mitigation to compensate for the fact that healers in this game are basically glorified mitigators.

Well a quick and dirty fix would be to have 10% mit on Asylum instead of the useless 10% curative power (like we don't have enough healing power already <.<) and reduce the CD to 60s.

[BigCheez]

Well a quick and dirty fix would be to have 10% mit on Asylum instead of the useless 10% curative power (like we don't have enough healing power already <.<) and reduce the CD to 60s.

Yeah, more homogenisation is definitely the answer. Just make asylum identical to kerachole/soil.

[Lorika]

Yeah, more homogenisation is definitely the answer. Just make asylum identical to kerachole/soil.

At least it would be something....Because, as it stand, what the WHM do, all the other healer job can do it better (except for some very niche things)

[AmiableApkallu]

At least it would be something....Because, as it stand, what the WHM do, all the other healer job can do it better (except for some very niche things)

I feel like this is one of those instances where I need to highlight my previous thoughts [1, 2]:

There are times when I feel like SGE is what you get when what you wanted is a WHM that hasn't been constrained by being the purest of "pure" healers, but instead you need to shoehorn the job into being a "barrier" healer.

EDIT: In terms of gameplay, I mean. The aesthetics are obviously worlds apart.

Let me elaborate: In the context of FFXIV's current encounter design...

No one has ever accused WHM of being the bestest of "pure" healers, nor has anyone accused of SGE of being the bestest "barrier" healer. On the other hand, people have accused WHM of lacking in barriers, and SGE of putting out too much regens/HP.

Take SGE, delete Kardia, rename (Pan)Haima as Regenerative Stoneskin/Protect (or whatever, I'm bad at names), smoosh what's left into current WHM, and... I think that might make for a reasonable jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none healer.

And that, I think, is perfectly fitting for a healer that you can pick up at Lv.1 and take through the MSQ and Be Viable in Content(tm), while being in keeping with previous Final Fantasy games where the only healer was... a white mage (or close derivative).

Like, WHM doesn't need to be Meta(tm) or The Best(tm). It just needs something more to its healing kit other than, "lol, I'll fix HP bars... assuming we're not all dead when {the mechanic} resolves."