We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[ForsakenRoe]

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

Well, first of all, no. Tank barriers scale off of Attack Power, not Max HP, unless the barrier specifically states that it is based on Max HP. So, Veil, TBN, Shake, are based on Max HP, because they state as much. The barrier effect of Guardian (1000p) is based on 'an amount equal to this tank doing a 1000p heal on themselves'. Coincidentally, PLD has access to Clemency, a 1000p heal, so it's pretty easy to see how much 1000p would actually be for them in any given gear.

Secondly, Barrier effects have a duration. The times between CDs (and there will be times), are the points where the Tanks take damage. But unlike currently, the damage won't be healed back by Bloodwhetting and the like. Once the HP is lost, it's lost until the Healer heals it back.

I dunno what they were writing about, as their numbers would be a nerf to the overall sustain of the Tanks. I don't think the Tanks need their sustain 'nerfed' per se, just tweaked so that the effect of the sustain is a little more... temporary. Plus, it'd introduce a new kind of 'skill': being able to manage your selfsustain effectively, to have higher coverage of barriers to mitigate

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

Its the combination of 'being able to mitigate so much, that the incoming damage is such a small number' in combination with 'the amount of selfhealing the tank brings'. Look again at PLD. Every 22ish sec, you get 1000p of healing for free, via Holy Sheltron, on top of it mitigating for so much. Every 1min, you get, say, 3 Divine Might procs, a Confiteor, and 3 Blades, each giving you 400p of healing when used. So in total, you're getting like... 5800p? of healing, by just playing your job and pressing buttons you'd already be pressing because they're part of your rotation/they've also got mitigative effects. It's not just that your mitigation kit is strong, it's that you've got so much incidental healing coming in supplementing it.

Now, you bring up Guardian. Yes, Guardian is strong. It should be, it's a 2min CD. When it's not available, you're using other mitigations, and healing HP with your actions. When you restore HP, you don't lose it again until the enemy takes it from you. When you press Guardian, you get 1000p worth of 'HP' via the barrier, yes, but at the end of Guardian's duration, you lose that barrier whether it was consumed or not. That's the point of the change: If you play sloppy and just hit whatever, whenever, you'll open up too many holes in your mitigation coverage, and take 'real damage' more often. 'Real damage' that you would no longer be able to simply heal through via Holy Spirits/Confiteor/Blades, or Bloodwhetting, or Aurora.

Out of all the Tanks, DRK is the 'least problematic' when it comes to this topic. People complain about '1DRK 3 DPS' EX roulette runs FAR less than WAR or PLD being in one. Why is that, when DRK's mitigation kit is so damn strong? It's simple: It's got the least selfhealing by far. It's very barrier-focused, with TBN, and when TBN isn't up, it's taking 'real damage' that it can't heal back easily (Abyssal Drain has a 1min CD). DRK is the proof, I'd argue, that such a change would work extremely well.

[Alice_Rivers]

Pure mitigation, and to a lesser extent shields better prevent protracted casual content holdouts by tanks because they are at their core “temporary” HP, pure healing is permanent HP

There is a valid argument to be made that if we just turn tank heals into shields then they might well just never run out of shields by virtue of synergy between mits and shields as well as the sheer quantity of mits, shields and mits with shields.

[Supersnow845]

There is a valid argument to be made that if we just turn tank heals into shields then they might well just never run out of shields by virtue of synergy between mits and shields as well as the sheer quantity of mits, shields and mits with shields.

I’m not saying I agree with self healing being turned to shields. I’m just saying the idea behind that idea is that shields and mitigation are inherently temporary, pure healing is permanent

[ForsakenRoe]

People mostly ignore the mitigation factor here because by and large ultimate and higher end savage actually do test tanks pure mitigation potential and even in more casual content mitigating damage; whether it’s needed or not; is much more in line with the tank job description than raw healing is

Tanks don’t necessarily need a nerf to their pure mitigation (though if they made it more interesting I’d take that as a net positive) but healing internally lengthens survivability often indefinitely. Even if tanks had a “reduce damage by 95% no CD” if they had no healing the boss would eventually whittle them down. However with self healing the damage they take is less than the damage they heal so their eHP is effectively infinite. That’s what leads to what OP is discussing. Pure mitigation, and to a lesser extent shields better prevent protracted casual content holdouts by tanks because they are at their core “temporary” HP, pure healing is permanent HP

I did some testing not so long ago. With no mitigation up at all, a tankbuster in a levelling dungeon (95) did about 70k damage to me. If I were to use my 40%, that would be about 28k mitigated by that action.

If I press Clemency as PLD (1000p of healing, the amount Holy Sheltron heals over its duration), I currently get 38k HP restored. And I don't even have last tier's BIS. It's not just a case of 'the barrier would be too strong', or 'the mitigation is too strong', or 'the enemies don't do enough damage', it's a combination of everything. But, as you mention in the second paragraph, even as strong as Guardian's barrier is, it's not up forever, and eventually, the tanks would run out of coverage, and start taking real damage. And once their HP runs out (due to the healer being dead, as per OP's example), the tank dies too.

[Rithy255]

Snip

I don't disagree that the healing plays a part in how strong the mitigation is both play a part into making a system where tanks are invincible even my listed examples of reducing tank's kits I said I would have entirely removed all healing from the magic blades combo as I stand by that, I don't think we need to remove Holy sheltrons healing if we keep other aspects of sustain on other tanks.

Guardian shouldn't be a 2minute cooldown it should just be weaker, adding barriers to cooldowns like suggested would open for more opportunity to cycle it so you still take barely any damage, instead of self healing now you just use your barrier + mitigation cooldown for high damage instances, I'd assume if you wanted to add barriers to more tank defensives you'd likely go for short cooldowns like holysheltron and HOC but having them up so often would lead to them never taking much damage in the first place

Funny you bring Dark knight up because the fact is 1 tank and 3 DPS runs are still EASILY done with dark knight, I know I can do a run as Dark knight healerless, people don't mention it enough because they see big unga bunga warrior and think "well OBVIOUSLY its the self healing that's the problem" when for the entire time im practically screaming and shouting that self healing isn't the only issue and If you played tank you would know that it isn't a simple self healing issue. (Though again as i've said a thousand of times yes it plays a big part into the issue)

Lastly even if we removed all self healing and I mean all self healing from everyjob for the sake of healers, even without turning things into barriers, you would still BARELY need to heal maybe throwing one ogcd heal once every two minutes is exhilarating gameplay for you and what exactly you want from healer, It's certainly not what I want we need to tackle, The Mitigation, the Self healing, the encounters, how item level synchs if you want a proper system that actually works for all roles.

We will not get anywhere better if we only look at one aspect of the problem and ignore the rest, Removing self healing doesn't solve the issue unless your issue is "how dare other jobs have some healing cooldowns I want to throw my one ogcd heal and my one aoe heal every few minutes so I have fun" How about we actually design a team game where healers are actually healing tanks that take actual damage.

I'll lastly say this again I do not want to play immortal mitigation simulator as a tank I want to play a Support role who protects my team.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You talk as if people are hyperfixating on tank sustain as the ONLY problem and the flawed approach of that when nobody who spends more than 5 seconds looking at the interlinked problems of tanks and healers thinks that’s the only problem.

We all know healer kits are bloated, we know damage is too low, we know that item level sync is messed up in this game. They are all interlinked problems.

HOWEVER, for the purpose of what OP is discussing; where the tanks simply kept each other alive with the rest of the party dead with little to no effort or skill or even knowledge of the encounter that problem is first and foremost a tank healing problem. Nerfing tank sustain won’t “fix” healers but it is one element of the puzzle and the largest element that contributes to OP’s problem. That’s why it’s the central focus of this thread. Removing tank healing won’t fix healers, it will fix OP’s problem for 99% of the untalented playerbase

[CaptainLagbeard]

Funny you bring Dark knight up because the fact is 1 tank and 3 DPS runs are still EASILY done with dark knight, I know I can do a run as Dark knight healerless, people don't mention it enough because they see big unga bunga warrior and think "well OBVIOUSLY its the self healing that's the problem" when for the entire time im practically screaming and shouting that self healing isn't the only issue and If you played tank you would know that it isn't a simple self healing issue. (Though again as i've said a thousand of times yes it plays a big part into the issue).

Sure it's possible to do DRK and 3 DPS, but I imagine it'd be considerably slower to do DRK and 3 DPS that can't heal at all (BLM, BRD, MCH, SAM, DRG, NIN and VPR) than it is to do just about any other setup... And if they didn't have the 7.1 buffs, it'd be even worse and slower.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Again I have said nerfing tanks healing is a good thing I don't know how much more I can mention this. But again like you've acknowledged it's more then sustain, I would personally rather they start by toning down the tanks kit entirely, then looking into things such as fight design and healer kits

Fights should never allow for two players to wittle down a boss slowly (unless it was already at low percent), This is done by both reducing sustain and mitigation values first but also making sure item levels are properly synched and fights actually do enough damage.

Though I can understand your view point I think as Tanks and Healers we should stand together and become the Supportstrike command force and become more powerful then ever leaving dps to solo content... Ok maybe off track here but we should be both asking for content to make both roles feel good and important as largely we've always been a after thought as Non-dps, hence why this awful imbalance between the roles has only festered into what we have today, I think nothing more then a overhaul of how both roles work is the only acceptable solution.
Though if in the meantime that means remove tank sustain, so be it I may not wanna play the game because I no longer feel like a "paladin" but if the healers would finally be happy then I guess theirs no greater sacrifice, but I'll still keep complaining until I actually feel like a "Paladin" until the ends of time.

Sure it's possible to do DRK and 3 DPS, but I imagine it'd be considerably slower to do DRK and 3 DPS that can't heal at all (BLM, BRD, MCH, SAM, DRG, NIN and VPR) than it is to do just about any other setup... And if they didn't have the 7.1 buffs, it'd be even worse and slower.

In what world would it be slower? as long as you know when to mitigate for AOE's in bosses and don't make mistakes It wouldn't be any slower... You really are overestimating tank sustain at this point and underestimating tank mitigation, fight output ect. I've even managed to do stormblood dungeons without no tank or healers and no rdm/smn this games damage output is a joke, though admittedly if you go no tank you cant wall to wall

[CaptainLagbeard]

In what world would it be slower? as long as you know when to mitigate for AOE's in bosses and don't make mistakes It wouldn't be any slower... You really are overestimating tank sustain at this point and underestimating tank mitigation, fight output ect. I've even managed to do stormblood dungeons without no tank or healers and no rdm/smn this games damage output is a joke, though admittedly if you go no tank you cant wall to wall

On bosses, it'd probably be about the same... But I would imagine trash mobs take a bit longer as you probably need most CDs every pull unless you do it one pack at a time.



Edit:

You talk as if people are hyperfixating on tank sustain as the ONLY problem and the flawed approach of that when nobody who spends more than 5 seconds looking at the interlinked problems of tanks and healers thinks that’s the only problem.

I suppose there is some fixation on tank sustain from my part, but mostly because it's an easy thing to fix.
And literally the only counter arguments against fixing it have been the occasional person dropping in being "I have main character syndrome and I must be catered to!" and the notion that fixing one issue doesn't fix every issue that currently exists, has ever existed and will ever exist.

[Rithy255]

On bosses, it'd probably be about the same... But I would imagine trash mobs take a bit longer as you probably need most CDs every pull unless you do it one pack at a time.

No Im serious when I say this if you properly know how to play dark knight you will not take longer you can easily take two mob packs, then another two mob packs with the CD's you got. aslong as you know how to actually use your mitigation the pulls are a joke.