We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[ForsakenRoe]

Guardian shouldn't be a 2minute cooldown it should just be weaker, adding barriers to cooldowns like suggested would open for more opportunity to cycle it so you still take barely any damage, instead of self healing now you just use your barrier + mitigation cooldown for high damage instances, I'd assume if you wanted to add barriers to more tank defensives you'd likely go for short cooldowns like holysheltron and HOC but having them up so often would lead to them never taking much damage in the first place

That is why I listed durations in the examples I wrote. For example, I wrote that Holy Sheltron's barrier could be 12s duration. Holy Sheltron takes about 22s to generate (Oath Gauge fill rate), and so while you have it up more often than not, you're still going to have ~10s out of every 22 where you don't have the barrier active. You can cover that gap with a different barrier, EG from Guardian, or Divine Veil, or maybe Divine Might/Confiteor/Blade combo barriers are up at that time. But eventually there will be points in the rotation where you don't have any barrier left to put up, and the damage comes in. And once it does, you can't recover that HP without a Healer's Healing, unless you use Clemency (which you will never want to do, it's a DPS loss). That's the point: There's going to be gaps in your defence, and it'd be an aspect of 'player skill' to rearrange when those gaps are presented to the enemy, so that they are timed to line up with the weakest moments in the enemy's assault.

Also, how much do you think these barriers are protecting you from? A 1000p heal in my last-tier gear on PLD (not even BIS) is like... 38k. So, a 400p barrier is 15200 HP. But, I mentioned that these PLD barriers would be 'stacks of barriers' in this redesign, akin to how Haima/Panhaima works. So, if an attack deals more than 15200p, the second layer of barrier doesn't catch it. It goes through and hits real HP, before the next layer is primed to take the next hit. For reference, this is the first double-pull in the latest dungeon:



This is one autoattack per enemy in the pull (there's 5 of them), and deals a fair bit more than 15200 damage. But, not pictured, is my buff bar. I have Shadowed Vigil (40% mit) and Rampart (20% mit) active in this picture. So, using two of the stronger options, together, is still not enough to take the pull's danger factor down to 'the enemies break less than one layer of barrier, per round of autoattacks they throw out'. In fact, we can see I parried one, and how much it dealt as a result. I could parry every incoming hit, along with having SV and Rampart active, and it'd STILL eat through a 400p barrier in one set of autoattacks (with 5000 damage left over to hit my 'real HP').

If we go into an EX roulette as SGE, and use nothing on the tank but Panhaima (6 layers of 200p barrier, 1200p total), you can also see how fast the layers get eaten through in a different format. They last 15s before falling off naturally, but they don't even make it to that long. If we then assume that PLD's Holy Sheltron (4 stacks of 250p, totalling 1000p, a little less than Panhaima totals up to) functions similarly, then we can estimate that it'd be eaten through about 20% faster (given it's around 20% less total potency). In seconds terms, if Panhaima takes 6s to eat through, HS would take 5.

What also has to be considered is 'timing'. If you have a barrier active, but no damage comes to use it, then the barrier is zero-sum, it didn't help you. If you use self-healing, the only way it can be zero-sum is if you're already at full HP. As a tank, the chances of being at full HP are pretty few and far between. You are almost always going to be able to 'make use' of the healing, unless you're the OffTank, in which case SE has handily made it so you can give your unrequired selfhealing to your CoTank for whatever reason. With Barriers, however, you cannot just hit the button willynilly. If you press Equilibrium at 50% HP currently, you get HP and it's 'useful' (because it restored HP). If you press TBN currently, but take no damage for 10s after pressing it, the TBN falls off and it was 'useless' because you spent MP on a mitigation that didn't mitigate anything. The same logic applies across the whole idea: Holy Sheltron's healing ALWAYS comes in useful, because if you press HS to mitigate something, it's because you're taking damage from it. And once that damage is dealt, the HOT of HS starts healing your HP back.

No Im serious when I say this if you properly know how to play dark knight you will not take longer you can easily take two mob packs, then another two mob packs with the CD's you got. aslong as you know how to actually use your mitigation the pulls are a joke.

Yes, because even though it has less self-healing potential than the other tanks, DRK still has some: Abyssal Drain. I was going to write this in the post you responded to, but I decided against it becuase I couldn't work out how to word it. But, since the conversation went in the direction I hoped it wouldn't end up going in, I'll just say what I was going to say originally.

Do a run of EX roulette, with 1 DRK (you) and 3DPS. Unbind Living Dead and Abyssal Drain from your hotbar entirely, as they both have self-healing components to them. Because it'd mess with your rotation too much, I'll say that Souleater is still allowed (despite it being the strongest self-healing power of all the Tanks' 123 combos). There's not much that can be done about Shadowed Vigil healing you for 1200p, but if you want to, you can manually make note of your HP level at any given moment, and subtract the amount SV heals you from it. If you dip below the SV heal value at any point after using it (I estimate it'd heal about 50k), you can consider yourself 'dead'

My theory is, you'll get through the pulls, yes, but it'll be far tougher to do so without the 'instantly hit full HP again' effect Abyssal Drain is providing you, the 1200p Excog of SV, and the weird healing effect of Living Dead.

[Asako]

I assume if you want to remove mitigation from tanks so the healers can do their job you are also on board with removing all DPS attacks from Healers, we wouldn't want them doing a DPS job now. Should the Tanks also stop attacking when they get aggro as they also aren't DPS players? You see how silly this mentality is?

How about doing your job and stop crying about it. If you died you died, don't blame other players for not dying. It is what it is. You're level 100 now. You should have a general idea of how to read most attacks and adapt. Some things will blindside you and that's ok. Just enjoy the show and try and watch what others are doing to see where you went wrong. This whole 'Why am I being punished because I messed up?' concept is mind boggling.

Also this talk of Tanks being so super strong is silly too, especially when it comes from healers. Healers in this game are absolutely busted. They have so many tools now that you practically never cast GCD healing anymore. They have absolutely every tool under the sun needed, so if you are dying instead of looking at the Tanks and complaining, I'd be looking at the healers saying, how did that happen? What went wrong? Tanking and Healing are the two easiest roles to play for a reason. They just have so many tools to do their jobs, unfortunately 14 is a game where they never teach nor give newer players a chance to learn how to play properly. They just escort you by the hand through all casual content with no worries in the world. ' Oh, That NM trial pull took you 20 minutes, yeah that was good enough, on you go, you don't need to learn anything'

Boss enrages for normal modes need to come back. For too long have people been coasting along whilst learning nothing and dragging content out. Maybe have it so there is no enrage if you use Trust. I miss the good old days of those near misses in Alexander normal when you think you are gonna do it then you see the Auto-Clean cast coming and you just know it aint happenning. People are afraid of wiping now, but it teaches you a lot and it really drills in the mechanics. A lot of these mechanics repeat in various fights so it's not a one off thing, these are things you take to future fights and adapt with.

Even with positioning, it's mind boggling to see people get a spread mechanic at higher levels and still trip over themselves without knowing their postions. If you are Melee you go in, and ranged go out, tanks and healers on cardinals, ranged dps north and melee dps south intercardinals.

I play with the Ivan Drago mindset. "If he dies....he dies"

[Supersnow845]

I assume if you want to remove mitigation from tanks so the healers can do their job you are also on board with removing all DPS attacks from Healers, we wouldn't want them doing a DPS job now. Should the Tanks also stop attacking when they get aggro as they also aren't DPS players? You see how silly this mentality is?

How about doing your job and stop crying about it. If you died you died, don't blame other players for not dying. It is what it is. You're level 100 now. You should have a general idea of how to read most attacks and adapt. Some things will blindside you and that's ok. Just enjoy the show and try and watch what others are doing to see where you went wrong. This whole 'Why am I being punished because I messed up?' concept is mind boggling.

Also this talk of Tanks being so super strong is silly too, especially when it comes from healers. Healers in this game are absolutely busted. They have so many tools now that you practically never cast GCD healing anymore. They have absolutely every tool under the sun needed, so if you are dying instead of looking at the Tanks and complaining, I'd be looking at the healers saying, how did that happen? What went wrong? Tanking and Healing are the two easiest roles to play for a reason. They just have so many tools to do their jobs, unfortunately 14 is a game where they never teach nor give newer players a chance to learn how to play properly. They just escort you by the hand through all casual content with no worries in the world. ' Oh, That NM trial pull took you 20 minutes, yeah that was good enough, on you go, you don't need to learn anything'

Boss enrages for normal modes need to come back. For too long have people been coasting along whilst learning nothing and dragging content out. Maybe have it so there is no enrage if you use Trust. I miss the good old days of those near misses in Alexander normal when you think you are gonna do it then you see the Auto-Clean cast coming and you just know it aint happenning. People are afraid of wiping now, but it teaches you a lot and it really drills in the mechanics. A lot of these mechanics repeat in various fights so it's not a one off thing, these are things you take to future fights and adapt with.

Even with positioning, it's mind boggling to see people get a spread mechanic at higher levels and still trip over themselves without knowing their postions. If you are Melee you go in, and ranged go out, tanks and healers on cardinals, ranged dps north and melee dps south intercardinals.

I play with the Ivan Drago mindset. "If he dies....he dies"

“If you die just watch other players”

(Please ignore I have 600% eHP because I have twice the HP 80% damage down and mitigation)

Are you hurling yourself off the arena if you get clipped by an attack because if not you are surviving based on tanks inherent strength, not being better than anyone else

The punishment for messing up should be a wipe, not watching the immortal tanks solo the boss because they physically can’t die

[brinn12]

It's absurd to have this issue after 10 years. In fact, it's only getting worse, as tanks only gain more survivability with time, while SE never ramps up the difficulty of normal content.

[Asako]

“If you die just watch other players”

(Please ignore I have 600% eHP because I have twice the HP 80% damage down and mitigation)

Are you hurling yourself off the arena if you get clipped by an attack because if not you are surviving based on tanks inherent strength, not being better than anyone else

The punishment for messing up should be a wipe, not watching the immortal tanks solo the boss because they physically can’t die

Yes, if you die watch other players. Absolutely, you chose the role you entered with, I didn't pick your role. That is not my problem if you got hit with something you shouldn't have and didn't pop your own self healing or healing potions. To me healers are in the same boat, I feel absolutely invincible when I play healer. I have everything I need to sustain and mitigate for everyone on short CD's, I can do incredible damage. The rare times I die on healer is down to me doing something stupid and not because the job is weak. Never mind Tanks, healers are as busted as they come.

Yoshi P has not punished people with wipes since HW. The community is too casual now. People simply do not want to learn.

[Supersnow845]

Yes, if you die watch other players. Absolutely, you chose the role you entered with, I didn't pick your role. That is not my problem if you got hit with something you shouldn't have and didn't pop your own self healing or healing potions. To me healers are in the same boat, I feel absolutely invincible when I play healer. I have everything I need to sustain and mitigate for everyone on short CD's, I can do incredible damage. The rare times I die on healer is down to me doing something stupid and not because the job is weak. Never mind Tanks, healers are as busted as they come.

Yoshi P has not punished people with wipes since HW. The community is too casual now. People simply do not want to learn.

“Yoshi p hasn’t punished people with wipes since HW”

No now you just get punished with tank soloing which everyone except tanks agree is worse. What a fantastic trade

And the situations are not always in your control. Quite often I’m a DPS on the new raids and the stack marker is coming up with only 4-5 people alive, tempra coat is strong but not that strong. What am I supposed to do in that situation. Because yesterday I had 2 tanks solo M6 for 10 minutes till they eventually died to a stack marker because the rest of the party died to an earlier stack marker because there wasn’t enough people alive. What did I do “wrong” in that situation? What was I supposed to do?

[Asako]

“Yoshi p hasn’t punished people with wipes since HW”

No now you just get punished with tank soloing which everyone except tanks agree is worse. What a fantastic trade

And the situations are not always in your control. Quite often I’m a DPS on the new raids and the stack marker is coming up with only 4-5 people alive, tempra coat is strong but not that strong. What am I supposed to do in that situation. Because yesterday I had 2 tanks solo M6 for 10 minutes till they eventually died to a stack marker because the rest of the party died to an earlier stack marker because there wasn’t enough people alive. What did I do “wrong” in that situation? What was I supposed to do?

How is the Tanks not dying a punishment for you? You died and you are making it out that it's their fault.

There wasn't enough people for the stack and you stacked anyway and you died. If the stack marker was on you why did you stack with the other people knowing you were going to kill them? Your healers should have known there wasn't enough people for the stack and not stacked so they could do their job. How is any of this the Tanks fault? You chose to play Pictomancer and traded your Rez for damage, that is part of the risk reward when you make your job choice. You choose a selfish DPS job yet expect special treatment when the drawbacks of said choice come back to bite you. You are free to play what you like but understand certain jobs have drawbacks. You made that choice, not the Tanks you play with. Absolutely ridiculous to blame another player just because they are playing their job correctly and wont die for you. If you want to play caster try Summoner or Red Mage, they can rez people and you will never have to suffer this rare occasion again.

[Supersnow845]

How is the Tanks not dying a punishment for you? You died and you are making it out that it's their fault.

There wasn't enough people for the stack and you stacked anyway and you died. If the stack marker was on you why did you stack with the other people knowing you were going to kill them? Your healers should have known there wasn't enough people for the stack and not stacked so they could do their job. How is any of this the Tanks fault? You chose to play Pictomancer and traded your Rez for damage, that is part of the risk reward when you make your job choice. You choose a selfish DPS job yet expect special treatment when the drawbacks of said choice come back to bite you. You are free to play what you like but understand certain jobs have drawbacks. You made that choice, not the Tanks you play with. Absolutely ridiculous to blame another player just because they are playing their job correctly and wont die for you. If you want to play caster try Summoner or Red Mage, they can rez people and you will never have to suffer this rare occasion again.

Honey the last time stacked stack markers didn’t track alive people was SB

If you don’t stack with a stacked stack marker when everyone else dies it just sends it to you

[Asako]

Honey? Really? That's how far we've got, have to get a sly dig in somewhere. Nice of you to assume that I am female for some reason. Really helps your cause making you look like an absolute clown.
Also stack markers are solo hits. You're thinking of multi hit stacks which function quite differentely, they aren't the same. Where is this secret fight then that only has one of these every 10 minutes? Tanks cant really survive those multi hit stacks either even with their cooldowns unless they have their invun, and that's on a 5-7 minute cooldown. So either there is a fight out there that only has one of them every 5 minutes or someone is telling me porkies. Warrior could maybe do it with well timed Bloodwhetting and a mix of cooldowns but your average Tank isn't pulling that off. Let's stop pretending that every Tank player is a superstar.

So what would you like then? You wanna make Tanks weaker again so no one plays them again like ARR / HW days when there was a Tank shortage? You want Tanks to die for no reason because the majority of healers in 14 aren't very good at their jobs? I mean, we're having this converstation right now because healers with all their endless tools cant do simple healing or mitigation. It's the sad reality of healers.

Better yet, lets make it so no one feels left out and just make it so when a single player dies the entire party wipes. It's not fair right that they have to sit on the floor and watch whilst they wait for a player to raise them. That's not right at all in your books it seems.

[HyperiusUltima]

You are free to play what you like but understand certain jobs have drawbacks. You made that choice, not the Tanks you play with. Absolutely ridiculous to blame another player just because they are playing their job correctly and wont die for you. If you want to play caster try Summoner or Red Mage, they can rez people and you will never have to suffer this rare occasion again.

Gee, I wonder what job doesn't have drawbacks? That's right: Tanks. Maybe you should reconsider what you're saying because making the choice to play a DPS is because it's fun - and generally, choosing to play tank can be fun too. The only issue is when you're sitting on the floor unable to press anything. If anything, you might as well be watching a Twitch Stream of the game you're playing because you aren't playing at all when you're dead - but the tanks are playing the game.

You just aren't because you're dead on the floor with the rest of your team.