We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Alice_Rivers]

I agree that Guardian sort of oversteps it's bounds, though I think all 40% Mitigations are pretty insane, GNB is pretty similar even if they actually take damage its mostly just the over health that goes away, it's also another healing ability, WAR/DRK I think adding a massive regen to warriors already overtuned heal kit was absurd. While DRK I was actually fine with a heal being tied to their kit. But I mostly agree that it's a problem with the content.

Ironically (given how often GNB is complained about) I think it got the best 40% mit from a balance standpoint, taking the least from their healers, I think DRK's one would be better if instead of having Excog+ it had the typical WAR "Increased Healing Received" effect which would have excellent interplay with healers where that mit is actually justified - imagine where other tanks invuln cheese extreme mechanics DRK has the option to pop 40% mit, add TBN and let the healer push them through, that would be a really cool passage of play with a tidy dps reward for the DRK's TBN popping.

Snipped the PLD stuff because we're pretty much of one mind on that.

[CaptainLagbeard]

But cutting down tanks self healing doesn't make tanks more fun nor does it really improve healers, Both are so fundamentally flawed designs that we're gonna have to do a little more then just "reduce tank sustain". Though I've said in previous posts that I would reduce current tank sustain because it is too high, warrior being the biggest example but other tanks can also use some sustain adjustments.

I don't want to come across like I want tanks to be OP because I really do not think they're fun and healers are not fun either I think current tank design negatively effects healers but isn't even close to all the issues healer has, I don't really know why it has to be a "tank vs healer" argument both suffer from this current design and both need major reworks not just "reduce/remove sustain".

I keep saying it is not the only issue, but IS an issue that NEEDS to be fixed.
And the fix to this particular issue is literally cutting down or just removing sustain abilities from tanks.

[ForsakenRoe]

The reason 'Tank Self-Sustain' is a problem, currently, is simple IMO: HP restored is 'permanent'. Once you heal the HP back, it doesn't expire, it's there until damage removes it again.
So wouldn't the issue be semi-solved, if all these Tank healing actions were converted into short-duration Barrier effects?
With Barriers, the Tank gets all of the self-sustain that the current Healing provides, but it requires them to be more proactive in timing the Barrier application, and if some of the Barrier isn't consumed, it's lost.

For example:

Holy Sheltron - 4 stacks of 250p barrier, lasts 12s. Using another Holy Sheltron adds 4 more stacks, and refreshes the duration to 12s
Holy Spirit/Circle, Confiteor, Blade combo actions - Adds a stack of 400p barrier, lasts 9s. Adding a new stack also refreshes the duration to 9s
Divine Veil - Applies a 400p barrier to party, in addition to the '10% of PLD's HP' barrier effect. Both are added together to make one buff (buff cap problems), and lasts 30s
Guardian - The duration vs CD balance means that this isn't an issue I think
Clemency - Horrendous DPS loss as it is, so is probably ok to stay as it is

Bloodwhetting - Applies a stack of 400p of barrier (as it does now). Adds one stack of 400p barrier per enemy struck via weaponskill, lasting 12s. Adding more stacks does NOT refresh the duration
Equilibrium - Applies a barrier of 1200p, plus 5 stacks of 200p barrier, lasting 15s
Shake It Off - Applies a 300p barrier to party, in addition to the '15% of target HP' barrier effect. Both are added together to make one buff (buff cap problems), and lasts 30s. Also grants 5 stacks of 100p barrier, which also last 30s
Thrill of Battle - The healing this provides is not an issue, and removing it will cause more issues than it'd solve
Damnation - Applies 5 stacks of 200p barrier, lasting 15s

Abyssal Drain - Applies a barrier (imagine it's made of the enemy's blood) of 500p per enemy hit, lasting 15s
Carve and Spit - Applies a barrier of 500p, lasting 15s
Shadowed Vigil - Applies a barrier of 1200p, lasting 15s. If this barrier expires before being fully consumed, applies a heal equal to 50% of the remaining barrier strength.
The rest of DRK's kit is already very barrier heavy, and we see that DRK is the 'least problematic' of the Tanks when it comes to 'Tank is too self-sufficient and refuses to die even when the party is all dead'

Aurora - Applies 6 stacks of 300p of barrier, lasting 18s. Using a second charge adds another 6 stacks, and extends the duration back to 18s
Heart of Corundum - Applies a barrier of 900p, for 9s. If this barrier expires before being fully consumed, applies a heal equal to 50% of the remaining barrier strength.
Great Nebula - Same logic as Thrill, changing the 'heal' this provides would make more issues than it'd solve, and the 2min CD means it's not too problematic

There we go, not only is the problem curbed (Tanks are no longer healing for ridiculous amounts), not only are the Tanks just as strong as before (ie they didn't get nerfed, as their selfsustain is pretty similar, just they have to be more proactive with it due to it being barrier-based), not only are the Tanks more thematic with these adjustments (the Tank role is defined by 'mitigate damage that is taken', and Barriers are more thematic to that than 'take the hit and then heal it back' I'd argue)...

Not only all of that, but with these, the Tanks are actually getting super-buffed. Imagine being a WAR, as we know them now, for something like FRU's TBs. I hear a certain bearded streamer was on about how Holmgang is so critical to WAR's defensive kit, because Bloodwhetting is weaker than its counterparts, Damnation doesn't have an additional mitigative aspect (in the way that Guardian has the barrier, GN has the 20% HP boost, etc). Well, with these changes Equilibrium would be an on-demand, 1200p+200p barrier, once per minute! Bloodwhetting would allow you to prep at least one stack, in addition to the Stem The Tide effect, giving 400p+400p of barrier from that, too.

But, on the flip side, for the most part once a Tank with these changes in place loses some HP, that HP is gone for good, until a Healer does the Healer's job, of Healing the HP back. Eventually, without a Healer left alive (as is the case with the OP's example), the Tanks will have their barriers fall off, and their HP will eventually whittle down to zero. They can sustain themselves for longer via skillful gameplay, rotating their barrier effects, etc. But not infinitely.

I believe this shows, you do not need to 'nerf' the Tank's self-sustain potential, to solve the problem. This is a buff, a fairly sizeable one at that, when you think about it, but it'd still solve the issue from the OP.
So if anyone claims it's a nerf, I'll point to the slides from Liveletters that say 'Job effectiveness may vary due to player skill'. Being unable to rotate CDs effectively to make full use of the barriers is a textbook example of 'skill issue'.

Also, last thing: with these changes, comes potential new avenues for optimization. Where a PLD would spend their Divine Might proc might be adjusted around these changes, because spending it and generating a new stack of Barrier would refresh their 9s timer, potentially allowing them to further extend their mitigation coverage (ie carrying the multiple stacks gained from the Confiteor combo further along in the fight, to cover more damage overall)

[CaptainLagbeard]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...


DRK was generally fine in 7.0, go back to that and maybe take Shadowed Vigil down from 1200 to like 800.

PLD, replace the HoT from Holy Sheltron and Intervention with a 400 potency shield. While removing the heal from Divine Veil and the Confiteor combo. Divine Spirit can keep it's heal as you get one of them through your main combo, and if you REALLY want to, you can trade the Confiteor combo to spam Divine Spirit for sustain in Requiscat/Imperator... Maybe drop down the potency of the Confiteor combo when not used with Requiscat/Imperator to make it even more of a trade off...

GNB, take Aurora back to 1 charge and 200 potency. And take Heart of Corundrum down to like a 300 potency heal max. Or turn the heal into a shield.



WAR would need some more extensive reworking... Unless you want more homogenization... They've kind of been in an awkward position when they started the tank homogenization in Shadowbringers, as Defiance lost the extra 25% HP and 20% more healing received, which incidentally back then buffed SCH and AST shields, as the healer shields are based on the amount healed... But without that extra HP, they needed the same mit as every other tank. But they also kept their self heals...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Personally I'd take back the Shadowbringers Tank sustenance and no more. EW and onward everything starts becoming ridiculous. WAR was still a bit of an outlier back then but at the very least they present player the choice to Raw Intuition or Nascent Flash + waste an infuriate stack.

[Jim5K]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...


DRK was generally fine in 7.0, go back to that and maybe take Shadowed Vigil down from 1200 to like 800.

PLD, replace the HoT from Holy Sheltron and Intervention with a 400 potency shield. While removing the heal from Divine Veil and the Confiteor combo. Divine Spirit can keep it's heal as you get one of them through your main combo, and if you REALLY want to, you can trade the Confiteor combo to spam Divine Spirit for sustain in Requiscat/Imperator... Maybe drop down the potency of the Confiteor combo when not used with Requiscat/Imperator to make it even more of a trade off...

GNB, take Aurora back to 1 charge and 200 potency. And take Heart of Corundrum down to like a 300 potency heal max. Or turn the heal into a shield.



WAR would need some more extensive reworking... Unless you want more homogenization... They've kind of been in an awkward position when they started the tank homogenization in Shadowbringers, as Defiance lost the extra 25% HP and 20% more healing received, which incidentally back then buffed SCH and AST shields, as the healer shields are based on the amount healed... But without that extra HP, they needed the same mit as every other tank. But they also kept their self heals...

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

[ONLYSTEEL]

they have to be babied by healers the entire time.

You mean like an actual trinity system!?!?!? Who would've thought!

[ONLYSTEEL]

200k to 250k - your own 2min - the amount of party shields and mit = roughly 75k without Stem the Flow.
10% would reduce considering the diminishing returns 15k at most. Means the old Warrior MaxHP buff would be better there. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.
You yourself took 71k there without Aquaveil 15%, Benesion ~ 10k Shield, Haima/Panhaima, Holos or Temperance. Your healers were simply not pressing buttons except E.Prognosis and Kera. Your WHM had one Aquaveil and one Benesion in the entire final phase. If you still think Warrior is the problem why you took so much damage there then sorry.. I cant help you.

I just love that we're at the point in this game's lifecycle that you can't even expect Ultimate raiders to understand the game. LOL. Good job correcting the record.

[ONLYSTEEL]

You are complaining self healing is the only good thing tanks have left because ShB took a dump on tank design removing the actual unique aspects of tanking but it’s healers fault that they are annoyed tanks randomly decided to become healers when they lost everything that constitutes tanking?

Maybe tanks should be asking for their old mechanics back, not clinging to being healers because they have nothing else

100% 100% 100%

I tanked DSR and it was the most boring experience I've ever had in an Ultimate.

Like literally WTF am I even there for? Just soak some tethers which is basically the role-based DDR slop we've been getting for a decade? I can't drag the boss. I literally don't have to think about emnity. I don't actively tank, all I need to do is use my defensive CDs at the same spot every single time that defensive CDs are now just part of your rotation. Literally the only interesting part in that fight is P6 when I need to optimize how to use my AoE combo as much as possible and still getting max uses out of Gnashing Fang. That's literally not a tank's job, that's the mentality of a DPS!!!

Literally everything in this slop game is now just a glorified DPS. I had way more fun in Lost Ark playing Gunlancer. You know, you actually felt like a TANK in this game, shielding people, slowing down like a turtle to soak damage, soaking mechanics others can't, providing defenses and buffs. And Lost Ark DOESN'T HAVE A TRINITY SYSTEM.

[Jim5K]

You mean like an actual trinity system!?!?!? Who would've thought!

Oh the actual trinity system, the system which the healers were actively trying to destroy during Sb and Shb. I still remember Bardam's mettle and the Burn, the times SE tried to upscale the difficulty of casual contents and made healers to heal and they actively abandoned duty especially when they saw a tank with a sprout next to their head. Believe it or not in Shb SE tried again and the healers complained again for having to heal and wall-to-wall pulls so SE gave up and toned down everything after Amaurot, they also complained about the old DRK for no self sustain and uncomfortable to heal so now every tank has sustain. Kinda surprised how the the healers are striking now.