We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Rithy255]

Snip

I don't disagree that the healing plays a part in how strong the mitigation is both play a part into making a system where tanks are invincible even my listed examples of reducing tank's kits I said I would have entirely removed all healing from the magic blades combo as I stand by that, I don't think we need to remove Holy sheltrons healing if we keep other aspects of sustain on other tanks.

Guardian shouldn't be a 2minute cooldown it should just be weaker, adding barriers to cooldowns like suggested would open for more opportunity to cycle it so you still take barely any damage, instead of self healing now you just use your barrier + mitigation cooldown for high damage instances, I'd assume if you wanted to add barriers to more tank defensives you'd likely go for short cooldowns like holysheltron and HOC but having them up so often would lead to them never taking much damage in the first place

Funny you bring Dark knight up because the fact is 1 tank and 3 DPS runs are still EASILY done with dark knight, I know I can do a run as Dark knight healerless, people don't mention it enough because they see big unga bunga warrior and think "well OBVIOUSLY its the self healing that's the problem" when for the entire time im practically screaming and shouting that self healing isn't the only issue and If you played tank you would know that it isn't a simple self healing issue. (Though again as i've said a thousand of times yes it plays a big part into the issue)

Lastly even if we removed all self healing and I mean all self healing from everyjob for the sake of healers, even without turning things into barriers, you would still BARELY need to heal maybe throwing one ogcd heal once every two minutes is exhilarating gameplay for you and what exactly you want from healer, It's certainly not what I want we need to tackle, The Mitigation, the Self healing, the encounters, how item level synchs if you want a proper system that actually works for all roles.

We will not get anywhere better if we only look at one aspect of the problem and ignore the rest, Removing self healing doesn't solve the issue unless your issue is "how dare other jobs have some healing cooldowns I want to throw my one ogcd heal and my one aoe heal every few minutes so I have fun" How about we actually design a team game where healers are actually healing tanks that take actual damage.

I'll lastly say this again I do not want to play immortal mitigation simulator as a tank I want to play a Support role who protects my team.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You talk as if people are hyperfixating on tank sustain as the ONLY problem and the flawed approach of that when nobody who spends more than 5 seconds looking at the interlinked problems of tanks and healers thinks that’s the only problem.

We all know healer kits are bloated, we know damage is too low, we know that item level sync is messed up in this game. They are all interlinked problems.

HOWEVER, for the purpose of what OP is discussing; where the tanks simply kept each other alive with the rest of the party dead with little to no effort or skill or even knowledge of the encounter that problem is first and foremost a tank healing problem. Nerfing tank sustain won’t “fix” healers but it is one element of the puzzle and the largest element that contributes to OP’s problem. That’s why it’s the central focus of this thread. Removing tank healing won’t fix healers, it will fix OP’s problem for 99% of the untalented playerbase

[CaptainLagbeard]

Funny you bring Dark knight up because the fact is 1 tank and 3 DPS runs are still EASILY done with dark knight, I know I can do a run as Dark knight healerless, people don't mention it enough because they see big unga bunga warrior and think "well OBVIOUSLY its the self healing that's the problem" when for the entire time im practically screaming and shouting that self healing isn't the only issue and If you played tank you would know that it isn't a simple self healing issue. (Though again as i've said a thousand of times yes it plays a big part into the issue).

Sure it's possible to do DRK and 3 DPS, but I imagine it'd be considerably slower to do DRK and 3 DPS that can't heal at all (BLM, BRD, MCH, SAM, DRG, NIN and VPR) than it is to do just about any other setup... And if they didn't have the 7.1 buffs, it'd be even worse and slower.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Again I have said nerfing tanks healing is a good thing I don't know how much more I can mention this. But again like you've acknowledged it's more then sustain, I would personally rather they start by toning down the tanks kit entirely, then looking into things such as fight design and healer kits

Fights should never allow for two players to wittle down a boss slowly (unless it was already at low percent), This is done by both reducing sustain and mitigation values first but also making sure item levels are properly synched and fights actually do enough damage.

Though I can understand your view point I think as Tanks and Healers we should stand together and become the Supportstrike command force and become more powerful then ever leaving dps to solo content... Ok maybe off track here but we should be both asking for content to make both roles feel good and important as largely we've always been a after thought as Non-dps, hence why this awful imbalance between the roles has only festered into what we have today, I think nothing more then a overhaul of how both roles work is the only acceptable solution.
Though if in the meantime that means remove tank sustain, so be it I may not wanna play the game because I no longer feel like a "paladin" but if the healers would finally be happy then I guess theirs no greater sacrifice, but I'll still keep complaining until I actually feel like a "Paladin" until the ends of time.

Sure it's possible to do DRK and 3 DPS, but I imagine it'd be considerably slower to do DRK and 3 DPS that can't heal at all (BLM, BRD, MCH, SAM, DRG, NIN and VPR) than it is to do just about any other setup... And if they didn't have the 7.1 buffs, it'd be even worse and slower.

In what world would it be slower? as long as you know when to mitigate for AOE's in bosses and don't make mistakes It wouldn't be any slower... You really are overestimating tank sustain at this point and underestimating tank mitigation, fight output ect. I've even managed to do stormblood dungeons without no tank or healers and no rdm/smn this games damage output is a joke, though admittedly if you go no tank you cant wall to wall

[CaptainLagbeard]

In what world would it be slower? as long as you know when to mitigate for AOE's in bosses and don't make mistakes It wouldn't be any slower... You really are overestimating tank sustain at this point and underestimating tank mitigation, fight output ect. I've even managed to do stormblood dungeons without no tank or healers and no rdm/smn this games damage output is a joke, though admittedly if you go no tank you cant wall to wall

On bosses, it'd probably be about the same... But I would imagine trash mobs take a bit longer as you probably need most CDs every pull unless you do it one pack at a time.



Edit:

You talk as if people are hyperfixating on tank sustain as the ONLY problem and the flawed approach of that when nobody who spends more than 5 seconds looking at the interlinked problems of tanks and healers thinks that’s the only problem.

I suppose there is some fixation on tank sustain from my part, but mostly because it's an easy thing to fix.
And literally the only counter arguments against fixing it have been the occasional person dropping in being "I have main character syndrome and I must be catered to!" and the notion that fixing one issue doesn't fix every issue that currently exists, has ever existed and will ever exist.

[Rithy255]

On bosses, it'd probably be about the same... But I would imagine trash mobs take a bit longer as you probably need most CDs every pull unless you do it one pack at a time.

No Im serious when I say this if you properly know how to play dark knight you will not take longer you can easily take two mob packs, then another two mob packs with the CD's you got. aslong as you know how to actually use your mitigation the pulls are a joke.

[ForsakenRoe]

Guardian shouldn't be a 2minute cooldown it should just be weaker, adding barriers to cooldowns like suggested would open for more opportunity to cycle it so you still take barely any damage, instead of self healing now you just use your barrier + mitigation cooldown for high damage instances, I'd assume if you wanted to add barriers to more tank defensives you'd likely go for short cooldowns like holysheltron and HOC but having them up so often would lead to them never taking much damage in the first place

That is why I listed durations in the examples I wrote. For example, I wrote that Holy Sheltron's barrier could be 12s duration. Holy Sheltron takes about 22s to generate (Oath Gauge fill rate), and so while you have it up more often than not, you're still going to have ~10s out of every 22 where you don't have the barrier active. You can cover that gap with a different barrier, EG from Guardian, or Divine Veil, or maybe Divine Might/Confiteor/Blade combo barriers are up at that time. But eventually there will be points in the rotation where you don't have any barrier left to put up, and the damage comes in. And once it does, you can't recover that HP without a Healer's Healing, unless you use Clemency (which you will never want to do, it's a DPS loss). That's the point: There's going to be gaps in your defence, and it'd be an aspect of 'player skill' to rearrange when those gaps are presented to the enemy, so that they are timed to line up with the weakest moments in the enemy's assault.

Also, how much do you think these barriers are protecting you from? A 1000p heal in my last-tier gear on PLD (not even BIS) is like... 38k. So, a 400p barrier is 15200 HP. But, I mentioned that these PLD barriers would be 'stacks of barriers' in this redesign, akin to how Haima/Panhaima works. So, if an attack deals more than 15200p, the second layer of barrier doesn't catch it. It goes through and hits real HP, before the next layer is primed to take the next hit. For reference, this is the first double-pull in the latest dungeon:



This is one autoattack per enemy in the pull (there's 5 of them), and deals a fair bit more than 15200 damage. But, not pictured, is my buff bar. I have Shadowed Vigil (40% mit) and Rampart (20% mit) active in this picture. So, using two of the stronger options, together, is still not enough to take the pull's danger factor down to 'the enemies break less than one layer of barrier, per round of autoattacks they throw out'. In fact, we can see I parried one, and how much it dealt as a result. I could parry every incoming hit, along with having SV and Rampart active, and it'd STILL eat through a 400p barrier in one set of autoattacks (with 5000 damage left over to hit my 'real HP').

If we go into an EX roulette as SGE, and use nothing on the tank but Panhaima (6 layers of 200p barrier, 1200p total), you can also see how fast the layers get eaten through in a different format. They last 15s before falling off naturally, but they don't even make it to that long. If we then assume that PLD's Holy Sheltron (4 stacks of 250p, totalling 1000p, a little less than Panhaima totals up to) functions similarly, then we can estimate that it'd be eaten through about 20% faster (given it's around 20% less total potency). In seconds terms, if Panhaima takes 6s to eat through, HS would take 5.

What also has to be considered is 'timing'. If you have a barrier active, but no damage comes to use it, then the barrier is zero-sum, it didn't help you. If you use self-healing, the only way it can be zero-sum is if you're already at full HP. As a tank, the chances of being at full HP are pretty few and far between. You are almost always going to be able to 'make use' of the healing, unless you're the OffTank, in which case SE has handily made it so you can give your unrequired selfhealing to your CoTank for whatever reason. With Barriers, however, you cannot just hit the button willynilly. If you press Equilibrium at 50% HP currently, you get HP and it's 'useful' (because it restored HP). If you press TBN currently, but take no damage for 10s after pressing it, the TBN falls off and it was 'useless' because you spent MP on a mitigation that didn't mitigate anything. The same logic applies across the whole idea: Holy Sheltron's healing ALWAYS comes in useful, because if you press HS to mitigate something, it's because you're taking damage from it. And once that damage is dealt, the HOT of HS starts healing your HP back.

No Im serious when I say this if you properly know how to play dark knight you will not take longer you can easily take two mob packs, then another two mob packs with the CD's you got. aslong as you know how to actually use your mitigation the pulls are a joke.

Yes, because even though it has less self-healing potential than the other tanks, DRK still has some: Abyssal Drain. I was going to write this in the post you responded to, but I decided against it becuase I couldn't work out how to word it. But, since the conversation went in the direction I hoped it wouldn't end up going in, I'll just say what I was going to say originally.

Do a run of EX roulette, with 1 DRK (you) and 3DPS. Unbind Living Dead and Abyssal Drain from your hotbar entirely, as they both have self-healing components to them. Because it'd mess with your rotation too much, I'll say that Souleater is still allowed (despite it being the strongest self-healing power of all the Tanks' 123 combos). There's not much that can be done about Shadowed Vigil healing you for 1200p, but if you want to, you can manually make note of your HP level at any given moment, and subtract the amount SV heals you from it. If you dip below the SV heal value at any point after using it (I estimate it'd heal about 50k), you can consider yourself 'dead'

My theory is, you'll get through the pulls, yes, but it'll be far tougher to do so without the 'instantly hit full HP again' effect Abyssal Drain is providing you, the 1200p Excog of SV, and the weird healing effect of Living Dead.