#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Eukrasia still do too little today to make SGE anymore distinct. Once again I defer folks to just take a look on PvP SGE's Kardia system and it won't be hard to connect the dots.

Nowadays I just play SGE without using Kardia at all for the giggles. The contents I'm running never warrant the HPS that button provides when I'm vomitting overheals with anything I do. (I die a little inside everytime people scream at me to pop Kardia just because)

High ends? I only recall Kardia being useful and *slightly more* engaging in P3S, not because it's a regen but more because there's a mechanic that actually make me want to swap my Kardia to anybody who's not blue coded: my co-healer.

[Kacho_Nacho]

It will never happen since SE hates healers for no reason.

I don't think it's hate per sec. It's more indifference.

[TheDustyOne]

An important part of my toolkit, just like everything else on my bar.

Just because it's important doesn't stop it from being filler.

Every melee 123 combo is important, but it's still filler in that it's what your press when there's nothing else to press. Burst Shot on Bard is important, but it's still the filler button when you've got nothing else to press. Dosis is the primary attack button for Sage, but you still only press it because there's nothing else to press.

[YarnMage48]

I think the main issue with Eukrasia is how little it affects. Let's take the four actions it modifies:

Diagnosis is 450p. If we change Eukrasian Diagnosis from '300p, Barrier for 180%' to '450p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Diagnosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Diagnosis unrequired as an action.

Prognosis is 300p. If we change Eukrasian Prognosis from '100p, Barrier for 360%' to '300p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Prognosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Prognosis unrequired as an action.

With these two actions no longer requiring Eukrasian interaction, the only remaining thing Eukrasia would achieve is 'it is how you access your DOT'. And at that point, rather than 'swap Dosis to E.Dosis', it could just as well be another 'press this to apply DOT' button like the other healers have. Point is, what Eukrasia actually 'does', its purpose for being a button on the hotbar, can be invalidated with simple numerical tweaks

This would be far less of a problem if Eukrasia did more than just 'swap button A to button A2', eg if Eukrasian Dosis did something else via Kardia, if Eukrasian Phlegma or Eukrasian Toxikon existed and had different effects on Kardia such as triggering an AOE heal, etc. becuase then Kardia would be a system that has depth enough to set it apart from SCH (who would presumably have more Faerie interaction within their gameplay)

So the gist of your new model is to take away the standard Prognosis and Diagnosis, and replace them with skills that incorporate both direct healing and shield. In other words, make them exactly like SCH GCD heals. Then we can change how the DoT's work to make them literally exactly the same as other healers' DoT's.

I'm sorry. What?

You want to make Sage even more like Scholar? The flexibility to switch your GCD between a direct heal and a heal/shield mix is one of Sage's distinctions. Why are you suggesting that SE remove it? Why are you suggesting that the DoT be truly exactly the same as other healers?

If SE did what you're suggesting, the immediate reaction from players would be that "Eukrasian variants was one of the only differences between Scholar and Sage, and now they've taken that away too! Why do they hate healers so much?"

This is exactly what I was getting at before when I pointed out that no matter what SE does, players will still complain.

If you don't like the Eukrasia system, that's fine. It's not for everyone and that's ok. But they did give us something different. If it doesn't fit your playstyle, there are other healers to chose from.

I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

The thing is, we try to NOT interact with Eukrasia outside refreshing DoT twice a minute & it's disappointing. Kardia and Eukrasia combined has such comparatively small impact when you compare what the likes of Addersgall system, Panhaima, Haima, Holos, etc can provide for very little trade off. What they need to do should be the other way around: more impactful decision making attached to Kardia & Eukrasia system while toning down the rest in their kits. Addersgall gauge are usually the first in lines of suggestions to be reworked. There's a reason why Addersgall gauge are often meme'd with "They're the same picture"-gag with SCH's Aetherflow. Suspiciously similar effects, suspiciously similar and/or outright same potency, suspiciously same cooldowns, suspiciously same learning level. So? Remove addersgall but ensure its impact are integrated elsewhere---preferably the already existing Eukrasia & Kardion system.

[Shurrikhan]

Ok let's break this down. Dosis III, Eukrasion Dosis III, Dykrasia II, and Eukrasion Dykrasia II adds up to 4 spells. Counting Eukraisa, that's only 3 hotbar spaces to access all 4 of them.

But Eukrasia also impacts heal GCDs. So when you add in Diagnosis, Eukrasion Diagnosis, Prognosis, and Eukrasion Prognosis, that's 8 total spells that only takes up 5 spaces on my hotbar.

So yes. Eukrasia changes the amount of space needed for my GCD skills.

I replied to your discussion of their offensive place in single-target combat. Of those, only Dosis III and Eukrasian Dosis III are relevant, and are analogous to any other filler-DoT pair.

But by all means, let's run your example through more broadly.

Your means of performing your GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 5 keys (Dosis, Dykrasis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia).
SCH's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 6 keys (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Adloquiem, Succor, Physick), of which only 5 keys are actually used.
WHM's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Glare, Dia, Holy, Cure II, Regen, Medica, Medica II), of which only 6 keys are actually used.
AST's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Malefic, Combust, Gravity, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helix, Aspected Helix), of which only 5 keys are generally used.

So its savings relative to other kit designs are, in effect... 1 in 32 keys.

And I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated after so many times, but since you're seemingly continuing to interpret critiques of healer same-ish-ness as if said critiques disliked what little distinction exists...

...none of this is to say that Eukrasia is bad. It simply happens to be laughable to say that hitting your DoT once per 30 seconds on SGE feels different just because you hit [2]->[1] instead of the normal [1] instead of just hitting [2] instead of [1] or that hitting your STHeal+ GCD feels different from AST hitting its STHeal+ GCD just because you hit [2]->[3] instead of just [3], etc., let alone that those fractional changes actually allow SGE gameplay to feel distinct from SCH (or even the broader basic healer template altogether).

I.e., that Sage's uniqueness could have been, was implied to be, and should have been far more than what we got.

And people trying to, say, put an [obligatory 1s GCD + 1.5s GCD pair] on a pedestal as if it were sufficiently unique from any [2.5s GCD with identical control and considerations] to make its job feel truly distinct... only makes it harder to get there.

[YarnMage48]

Just because it's important doesn't stop it from being filler.

Every melee 123 combo is important, but it's still filler in that it's what your press when there's nothing else to press. Burst Shot on Bard is important, but it's still the filler button when you've got nothing else to press. Dosis is the primary attack button for Sage, but you still only press it because there's nothing else to press.

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

[Shurrikhan]

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, there is a distinct and consistent definition of filler that absolutely does apply to each healer's standard acontextually usable attack.

What do you use when you have nothing else to use (e.g., no eHP checks to meet, nothing sufficiently nearing the end of its duration or with enough upcoming uptime requirements to be worth reapplying early, nothing at risk of wasting cooling time)...
....to fill the space between higher value-per-uptime actions?

Filler.

Which is that on SGE? Dosis.

Which is that on AST? Malefic.
Which is that on SCH? Broil.
Which is that on WHM? Glare.

What, then, do Dosis, Malefic, Broil, and Glare amount to? A shared, wholly interchangeable "filler" action.

______________________

Do not mistake "filler" with "zero-value". "Filler" has never meant that, and its actual meaning is obvious from the word itself. The latter is called (effectively) idling, or leaving time unfilled or wasted.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

Basically, yeh. If anyone thinks I want SGE to become even more similar to SCH, after all of what I wrote here... yeh, IDK

The point (though made not-very-well, possibly) is that, of all the possible designs SE could have used to make SGE 'feel different from SCH', they chose one with such small difference that it can be undone by simply tweaking a couple of numbers. There's also like... zero reason, once you have the Eukrasia button, to ever press Diagnosis or Prognosis. E.Prog/E.Diag at least restores part of their 'damage cost' via Toxikon, the MP cost increase is ignoreable due to MP economy being so strong (and the increase between Prognosis and E.Prog is literally 100), the MP you save by using the Toxikon charge given (400p saved) outweighs the 100p cheaper cost of Prognosis anyway, the extra healing that Diagnosis gives over E.Diag (or Prognosis gives over E.Prog) is easily covered by... literally anything else in the kit. The only thing that makes the distinction 'interesting' at all, is that the shields are instant and the heals are not.

What I'm trying to get at though, is 'why have a button that upgrades my 'Medica 1 button' into a 'Succor button' (E.Prognosis and Succor even have the same effective barrier potencies!)', when there are alternative ways that the two could have been made distinct in gameplay, such as 'attack which costs more MP than Dosis, deals same damage as Dosis, but applies the Kardia heal to everyone in an AOE instead of just one person'? Or 'attack which applies a barrier to Kardia target', or 'attack which applies a Regen to Kardia target', etc. Why not lean into the idea that SGE heals by attacking (via Kardia), and give it kit that allows it to perform more of the Healer Role Responsibilities via Kardia?

Imagine a new healer comes out, say they finally manage to come up with something for Chemist. If it has an AOE heal on the GCD that 'heals for X potency, and applies a barrier for Y% of healing done', nobody's going to care what small 'twist' they do to make it seem a little different, it's going to be referred to as 'their Succor'. If it doesn't have a Barrier attached and is just a pure heal, it's 'their Medica'. And it's okay IMO that they have a similar base kit, AST and WHM have incredibly similar base kits, Helios/Medica, Regen/Asp.Helios, Cure/Benefic, etc. It's the extra kit they have that distinguishes the two. WHM has Afflatus spells and a refund system to make them damage neutral, AST has a lot of 'delayed healing' whether via HOTs or 'literally wait to let the action become stronger' like Star, plus it also has an entire system to play around, the Arcana. SCH and SGE don't have enough distinction in that 'extra kit', IMO, hence they get the judgemental glare. Addersgall is Aetherflow, the spenders are similar enough that they have the same keybinds, and Toxikon is 'Ruin 2 with extra steps'

BTW, Eukrasia is just 'inverse Emergency Tactics'. Instead of 'remove Barrier to heal harder', it removes part of the heal (Prognosis goes from 300>100) to apply a Barrier. Which is funny, because SGE also has 'Actual Emergency Tactics, but also the inverse' with Pepsis, where you take an applied Barrier, and then purposely break it to cause instant healing. They could have at least made it so, when a barrier breaks from damage, a buff is left for a few seconds that Pepsis can work off of, allowing you to have a gameplay of 'raidwide hits, instantly Pepsis to get a 'healing-based counterattack' of sorts'. That alone would be pretty cool to see (especially if Pepsis had a shorter CD, 30s is ridiculous for what it does)

[Supersnow845]

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

I think you are getting mixed up, filler does not mean that it’s useless or only something that may or may not be worth doing. Filler simply means what you press when you have nothing else to press

Dosis is filler, cascade and fountain are filler, fire in red, aero in green and water in blue are filler.

Filler isn’t a bad thing it just has a pretty strict definition