#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Tigore]

I've definitely seen a lot of complaining on other forums in the past too. I've had some discussions with a few people on how some ideas could solve the problems. The SCH fairy is an obvious one with debate still, but I am still uncertain about other parts like which card system to use for AST. We may have mentions of the oldest one, but those were also the days we dreaded seeing "The Spire" and "The Arrow". Only BLMs seemed to like the Arrow and I believe NINs hated that card and asked us not to give it to them since it drifted their rotation. In which case, ForsakenRoe seems to have some good ideas from what I noticed. They are already neatly placed in a thread of its own too. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ou-fix-it-line. Hope I got that link working.

I get that venting frustrations and complaining can raise awareness to the problem, but we eventually learn that it's only really good with drawing attention to the problem. Someone still has to come up with a solution to solve it. The frustration happened ever since Shadowbringers with letting the devs decide what was the best solution, so it may very well fall to us to say what is needed now. It doesn't make sense to tell someone to come up with something for us if we already know they don't know what that is >.>

In any case, those have been my frustrations. Players are telling us the healer strike may not be digging deep enough and they may very well be right. I have a Savage raiding friend, but he doesn't notice the green river as much from forming static groups. So it comes down to how well the dungeon finder wait times are for judgment. Looking at some other YouTube video comments, the healers are still looked at as very melodramatic as you said, Klu. Since we can only expect so much from new healers trying out the role. Although the suggestion to actually drop the game would be a bit "too permanent" so to speak. If I am having to do that, I am either very busy with something else or I am done and don't care anymore.

It's clear that at least some here have indeed boycotted the healer role for queuing for dungeons. I am levelling DPS classes as a main reason, but I am still persistent with DPS for the Expert roulette now. I might use the healer role for friends like for map parties, but that is my only exception so far. The plan I am thinking of is something akin to malicious compliance. Let the devs think the new healers replaced the veterans and teach the new players how to heal efficiently if asked. I will also try my best to perform well enough so they don't need to heal as much. Some days lag gets in the way or I don't notice something on time, but it happens. Once they can Glare spam like us, they can decide if they like it or not. I noticed several have come in to say they did not and joined the cause.

[JuicyHeals]

So then what do you gain by shittingg on people for what you call whining? People have pretty valid grievances and they're allowed to voice concern for it.

Maybe the strike will or won't work but what's not needed is for you to come and disregard this as a nothing burger

[Silver-Strider]

I fail to see how reintroducing a mit/shield to the level 15-30 range and bringing lilies down to the level 30-50 range would "kneecap the class anymore than it already is", pray explain how that logic works.

Because we're trying to prevent bad habits from forming in the 1st place. Since we're going to unlock Cure 2 at level 30 with freecure shortly thereafter, it seems confusing to also introduce the Lily System at a similar time as the 2 system seem to conflict with one another and while I do acknowledge that Freecure does need to be removed, the fact that it's survived 10 years without being touched, leads me to believe the Devs wouldn't remove it, even if they introduced the Lily System earlier on. I would rather that people get accustomed to using Lilies, Tetra and Stoneskin 1st, before Freecure can ever get its claws into people at all. The ONLY way, I would welcome Freecure remaining, is if they did something to make using Cure1/2 actually appealing to utilize instead of their current state of scraping the bottom of the barrel desperation buttons.

I do apologize if I came off as antagonistic, that was not my intention but after so many arguments about trying to make WHM better constantly getting rainroaded by people that come in and say "WHM is fine as is", it just comes out as a reflex at this point.

[Alice_Rivers]

I kind of understand the rationale for creating Freecure but it's also a clear failure of design, rather than being a chance for free cure 2, it should be either MP based or token based so that it charges as long as you're below 2k MP or you get one charge for every three cure 1 casts so that it's actually useful. While it's true to say that EW WHM is the only iteration I have experience with I don't really have a problem with it but I'm also not especially attached to it either, I just think that gauges should be consistently a job thing rather than a class thing.

[klu]

So then what do you gain by shittingg on people for what you call whining? People have pretty valid grievances and they're allowed to voice concern for it.

Maybe the strike will or won't work but what's not needed is for you to come and disregard this as a nothing burger

Let's not do a validity spiral okay? You're entitled to raise grievances, I'm entitled to criticized them, you're entitled to criticize me right back, yadda yadda yadda.

[JuicyHeals]

Let's not do a validity spiral okay? You're entitled to raise grievances, I'm entitled to criticized them, you're entitled to criticize me right back, yadda yadda yadda.

I agree you can criticize but I would say what you typed isn't criticism just complete dismissal

[ForsakenRoe]

In which case, ForsakenRoe seems to have some good ideas from what I noticed. They are already neatly placed in a thread of its own too. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ou-fix-it-line. Hope I got that link working.

I get that venting frustrations and complaining can raise awareness to the problem, but we eventually learn that it's only really good with drawing attention to the problem. Someone still has to come up with a solution to solve it. The frustration happened ever since Shadowbringers with letting the devs decide what was the best solution, so it may very well fall to us to say what is needed now. It doesn't make sense to tell someone to come up with something for us if we already know they don't know what that is >.>

This is how I feel about the situation too, we've said since SHB (5 years ago at this point) what issues we perceive with the Healer design. Rather than simply repeat that I don't like the designs they've got, I'd rather use the time/skills I have to suggest ways to improve the situation. A lot of anti-strike commentary revolves around 'they are complaining but they don't know what they want/they can't suggest any changes', so I personally believe it's more powerful a case to put forward that 'I don't agree with the Healer designs we have, and here's how I'd try to improve them while keeping the current framework mostly intact to reduce devtime strain'. I know that other users (Ty_taurus in particular) have also suggested changes that don't even add any new skills or systems, and simply change values on things we have (eg CDs, resource costs) to make our DPS actions available more often, reducing the devtime constraint even further (to the point where it could be implemented in a 7.X patch)

But the real issue in all of this, is that it doesn't matter how in depth I or others go with our suggestions, if SE isn't willing to listen/have a plan they're determined to stick to. I can math out potencies and cooldowns perfectly, and post a University Course Dissertation length design document outlining exactly what to do (and I suppose I did), that SE could simply follow to the letter and alleviate 'most' of the complaints (there's always going to be some that aren't addressable in any idea). But that relies on SE actually agreeing that something needs to change. If they insist that 'actually no, we believe that Tanks should be able to heal so much of the party's HP that it means you don't need a Healer at all', then any ideas/changes we suggest are dead at the starting line.

I kind of understand the rationale for creating Freecure but it's also a clear failure of design, rather than being a chance for free cure 2, it should be either MP based or token based so that it charges as long as you're below 2k MP or you get one charge for every three cure 1 casts so that it's actually useful. While it's true to say that EW WHM is the only iteration I have experience with I don't really have a problem with it but I'm also not especially attached to it either, I just think that gauges should be consistently a job thing rather than a class thing.

There's ways to make Freecure 'not awful'. The simplest thing would be to make Stone/Glare also proc it, such that if you're DPSing, you'll naturally have a proc available whenever you need to throw a single Cure2 out for stability. In the above thread of my designs that Tigore linked to (on which note, ty for linking), I'm also suggesting an extra damage button, Water (later Banish) which would also have a chance to trigger Freecure, and a trait that upgrades Cure1 to Cure2 (with Cure1's MP cost being kept, such that Cure2 costs say, 500MP), such that Freecure's effect would be changed to 'When you cast Cure2/Stone/Water, you have a chance to get a Freecure proc, which makes Cure2 instantcast and have an MP cost of 0'. Thus, if someone is down to the point where their healing gameplay is 'spam Cure2 to keep up', Freecure's effect would be 'sometimes while you're spamming Cure2, it doesn't cost MP'

That alone would change Freecure from 'awful and a waste of a trait' to 'it still kinda sucks but it has niche use I guess'. But, we can also get a lot more creative with it. For example, what if the proc was changed from 'Cure2 costs no MP', to 'Cure2 costs no MP, and applies 9s of Regen to the target'? If such a proc was able to be triggered off of Stone/Glare, then the power of that single GCD would be heavily tipped, such that maybe it IS worth using, even though it costs a GCD of damage. 800p plus 3x250p is quite a lot of healing power for one GCD, and it'd be incredibly good for progression (Natural Alignment instantly comes to mind).

Or, for the old Overcure trait (Cure2 has a chance to make Cure3 cost 50% less MP), how about a rework that A: upgrades Medica 1 to Medica 2 directly. Medica 2 is equal to Medica 1 in potency after just one tick:

Pre 85, Medica 1 is 300p. Medica 2 is 200p, plus 5 ticks of 100p.
After level 85, Medica 1 is 400p. Medica 2 is 250p, plus 5 ticks of 150p.
After level 94, Medica 1 is 400p. Medica 3 is 275p, plus 5 ticks of 175p (making Medica 1 even worse comparatively)

So, if Medica 2's effect were simply shortened by 3s, and that one tick moved to the base cast, at the moment of unlocking Medica 2 we'd go from 300p, to 300p plus 4 ticks of 100p, totalling the same 700p Medica 2 currently has before level 85. Then, once all that is done, spamming Medica 1 always felt kinda bleh, and Cure 3 feels cool but is restricted by MP cost. So, the next part of the changes, B: Reintroduce Overcure trait, but change its effect to 'When you (the WHM) have Medica 2(3) active upon yourself, the MP cost of Cure3 is halved (from 1500 to 750)'. This would keep the option to spam Medica 1 (which is now Medica 2, to consolidate hotbar space) for whatever reason (eg range), but also allows the player to pump heavy throughput in situations where it's required, by giving THE Final Fantasy 'big healing' move, Curaga, its rightful place on the throne as 'this is the move you use for the BIG healing'

Because we're trying to prevent bad habits from forming in the 1st place. Since we're going to unlock Cure 2 at level 30 with freecure shortly thereafter, it seems confusing to also introduce the Lily System at a similar time as the 2 system seem to conflict with one another and while I do acknowledge that Freecure does need to be removed, the fact that it's survived 10 years without being touched, leads me to believe the Devs wouldn't remove it, even if they introduced the Lily System earlier on. I would rather that people get accustomed to using Lilies, Tetra and Stoneskin 1st, before Freecure can ever get its claws into people at all. The ONLY way, I would welcome Freecure remaining, is if they did something to make using Cure1/2 actually appealing to utilize instead of their current state of scraping the bottom of the barrel desperation buttons.

On Freecure, as above. I wonder if there's a distinct difference in perception and gameplay in JP, where healers are much more willing to throw out GCD healing. In essence, when the Hall of the Novice said 'use damage spells when it's safe to', I wonder if JP takes that advice directly, and uses damage 'when it's safe', as compared to us in the west where we play in such a way as to 'force more safe times to exist' via planning out our CDs so meticulously? If JP is more open to the idea of using a GCD heal when needed (compared to EUNA), it could make some sense why Freecure survived this long. Synastry would also follow the same logic, it makes a lot of sense for it to exist when the players are pressing GCD healing more often.

For 'bad habits' and Lilies, as linked, I'd move Lilies down to 30, and introduce the system via Stoneskin. As a concept, 'GCD heal but it's damage neutral' is not quite as eyecatching and 'interesting gameplay' to a new player (especially when you don't have Misery till 74-76 whenever it is), but a WHM having limited access to the ability to put a Barrier on an ally would be quite 'cool feeling' I'd expect, in the same way that everyone popped off all those years ago about SCH getting Indomitability (the limited access to the ability to 'pure heal'). Additionally, Stoneskin would help solve another issue WHM has, which is the feeling of 'waste' when we overheal to prepare a Misery for the 2min window. But, a Barrier isn't necessarily a 'waste', because it gives us 30s to make use of it. As long as raidwide damage occurs within 30s, that Lily spent is not 'wasted'. It also opens up potential interesting dynamics between healers, wherein a SCH/SGE will prefer the WHM to apply Barriers for raidwides (because they're damage neutral), but at the same time, if the raidwide damage is too strong (eg during progression), the WHM barriers will not be enough and so the SCH/SGE's stronger Barriers (eg Deploy-Adlo) are required, meaning that their 'Barrier Healer' identity is not compromised by WHM's 'limited access to Barrier'

[Tigore]

I was debating on mentioning some things for Freecure, but it looks like it was the right call for me to wait. I remember quite a bit of what was discussed months ago, ForsakenRoe.

In any case, I had some concerns too that we are hitting a stalemate with the healer strike. The Savage PF front has the green river, but this probably just gets noticed 5 - 10% of the time for the community. It's essentially just a small warning and the other players more care about what happens in the random dungeon roulette. Since Yoshida and the devs seem to care more about what the perceived new casual healers think rather than us "toxic veterans", we probably should turn our attention to that direction on what we can do as a next phase.

Since it seems some of the players don't believe us that Glare spam happens and the WAR / PLD can steal away their jobs, we might have to do a live demonstration more often, so to speak. I am already doing my best to provide high damage with my DPS survival cooldown use, but it still might not be enough. The other players say that these OP strats only happen when we have coordinated players around. We supposedly have a discord link on the first post for a server to use. When we have some free time, maybe we could ask the moderators there to form groups to make the runs as trivial as possible for the new healers? If the healers die on the 93 trial? No problem. We have a WAR and PLD to take over >.> Now I'm not saying we keep them dead on purpose. If we do have a RDM / SMN, still raise them. The goal is to expose the design flaws to the public as much as possible. Make the runs so boring that the healers have to glare spam to do something meaningful. Make them watch the tanks do their job for them with oGCDs. Make everyone watch and laugh how some raidwides have difficulties breaking AoE barriers because the boss got Addled / Feinted with a tank raid mitigation effect combined together.

[AmiableApkallu]

The Savage PF front has the green river, but this probably just gets noticed 5 - 10% of the time for the community.

Well, yes, because the the actual problem is a blue river. I'm always waiting on tanks to fill. I'm always seeing parties that could fill if only there were one or two more tanks.

Unless, of course, that sort of thing depends on your data center, the time of day you want to raid, the people you normally raid with, your own personal choice of job, etc. etc.

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I mean, "popularity" strikes me as one of the worst metrics to base class/job design around. It's better that a class/job (or role) attract a dedicated following than the mercurial folk who will jump ship as soon as another hotness appears on the scene.

[Aravell]

I think we just have a multi-colour river in PF nowadays.

Tank and healer players are both suffering from the dev team homogenising their role to entice people who don't even want to play a support role in the first place. There's also the physical ranged players who are suffering from being barely relevant, bringing only that 1% party buff.