#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

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I definitely agree with most things you're saying at least I want both tanks and healers to take a broader approach to both supporting each other and the party, rather then stuff like one tank soloing the responsibility of the party, funnily enough I enjoy being a team player in a team based game ^^

It's odd that warrior in particular gets some extra bonuses to their healing in general, nascent flash healing both you and ally and shake it off regen are the most odd to me, we could do without warrior regen (still keep the base heal, or remove base heal for regen), theirs certainly cases that point to tank sustain being a little bit too much.

I'd argue back a little bit that self sustain isn't as big as a issue as Mitigation levels, though both work together to create a state where tanks can keep themselves alive with no real help, I think broader changes like general adjusting tanks selfish survivability (which can be mitigative and sustain values on war) to a lower extent I feel is the way to go without obviously just removing all forms of sustain which seems to be a common argument.

I also agree that SCH/SGE take up WHM/AST niche too much, I think the barrier/pure split wasn't the best idea and it's funny that they're giving the pure healers more shielding/mit abilities in DT while giving sage/sch more pure healing utility... almost to sort of try to fix things? I personally would want both healers and both tanks to fill a important part in the party, I also think theirs a point that white mage is entirely already outclassed by AST when shield healers are also.

I think it comes down to a encounter and job design issue, healers and tanks should be designed better, though I think encounter design is actually the main issue at least 70% of the issue we have with how current healers aren't really that needed.

[CKNovel]

I think we're broadly in agreement. I too think it would be a waste to remove the party support elements of tank kits, there are times after all where the healer is preoccupied and someone's near death experience goes unnoticed, having a tank able to step in with cover/TBN/aurora/nascent flash (not healing the WAR as well because that's just stupid, SE) is good party design. Similarly having partywide mit OR shield OR heal (looking at you PLD/WAR) is also good party design and helpful to a healer without replacing them, I like good party interactions and if the tank wants to save me an oGCD or better a GCD then great, thank you.

I would absolutely trade self sustain for better mitigation, shield/reduction instead of raw healing, that's a compromise I can happily accept.
I doubt WAR will complain if you trade their healing for shields, especially in raiding where self healing becomes less valuable.
The current content also doesn't do enough damage, if you check the FRU clear it survives the LB tank check with an LB2.

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

[Rithy255]

I would absolutely trade self sustain for better mitigation, shield/reduction instead of raw healing, that's a compromise I can happily accept.
I doubt WAR will complain if you trade their healing for shields, especially in raiding where self healing becomes less valuable.
The current content also doesn't do enough damage, if you check the FRU clear it survives the LB tank check with an LB2.

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

If 4 divine veils and clemency (which is cure 2 that you can't spam as much but heals you 50%) can replace the entire healer role, it's a issue with how fights are designed and not the roles itself.

Clemency also funnily enough wouldn't be a issue if tanks and healers had similar damage outputs because having 4 paladins spamming it 40+ times should make hard fights pretty much impossible to clear.

[Alice_Rivers]

Clemency is an interesting point, as you rightly point out it is both a healer GCD matter and an archetypal PLD ability across most of fiction. I'd suggest that there is room for both with several possible compromises; it could be weaker and/or have a longer cooldown and/or be weighed against new/higher MP costs for other PLD abilities. Personally I favour extending the cooldown a bit so that it's not spam-able anymore, maybe 20s? I don't know, let it be a valuable party tool to cover for a mistake by a party member without being too much.

[Shurrikhan]

Clemency is an interesting point, as you rightly point out it is both a healer GCD matter and an archetypal PLD ability across most of fiction. I'd suggest that there is room for both with several possible compromises; it could be weaker and/or have a longer cooldown and/or be weighed against new/higher MP costs for other PLD abilities. Personally I favour extending the cooldown a bit so that it's not spam-able anymore, maybe 20s? I don't know, let it be a valuable party tool to cover for a mistake by a party member without being too much.

The flexibility of the cast seems pretty essential to its flavor, tbh, though I don't see why it'd need quite so low a cost as it does now when PLD regens 3200 MP per full combo's time (apart from during Req GCDs).

I'd rather just have more to heal and, perhaps more importantly, both greater healer damage possible and/or more of an offensive cost to tank sustain, such that a healer-less pair or mass of tanks is just not nearly so able to go ham, adding further rDPS cost to fully opting out of an entire role.

Food for thought, though: What could the dynamics of a tank-less comp even look like? Would there even be any way to salvage that into something fun? Dropping a healer, of all roles, does make sense, as it's essentially removing one's safety margin (albeit less so with PLD-stacking). But you'd have to have far less passive tank mit (and scale TBs around that) and greater power in healer mit and DPS personals, etc., for it to offer enough control between rezzes to not just feel like a cluster****, I'd imagine.

Full transparency: I like being able to shuffle around role allocations. I feel like it helps keep the inter-role economy of outputs more in check in ways that tend, however incidentally, to maintain job distinction over mere role-fixtures/-templates. That said, I'd hate if a role or job were consistently dispensable -- say, if RDM could only ever be a Rez Mage or a healer a wet wipe, or for one's tasks to seemingly boil down to just voking once and then being a DPS with extra buttons to hit when cued by giant red construction warning VFX.

[Iedarus]

I do remember reading of a "healer only" clear of something or other and tanks saying to the effect of "See? There's no issue here."

Actually for real. I always wanted to ask Avycatte what her clear time was on her x4 healer runs, cause I guarantee the 3 dps 1 tank comp clears WAY faster than 4 healer comp.

Edit: Ugh, typo.

[Rithy255]

Actually for real. I always wanted to ask Avycatte what her clear time was on her no healer runs, cause I guarantee the 3 dps 1 tank comp clears WAY faster than 4 healer comp.

a clear time on 3 dps and 1 healer would be pretty close to a 1 tank and 3 dps.

4 tanks would be slower then standard 1/1/2 dungeon comps.

[MisterNublet]

a clear time on 3 dps and 1 healer would be pretty close to a 1 tank and 3 dps.

4 tanks would be slower then standard 1/1/2 dungeon comps.

1 tank 3 dps clears much faster than 1 healer 3 dps. It isn't even close.

Tank can handle larger packs of mobs. DPS cannot without being healed considerably, thus losing out on dps from the healer.

[Azurarok]

Food for thought, though: What could the dynamics of a tank-less comp even look like? Would there even be any way to salvage that into something fun? Dropping a healer, of all roles, does make sense, as it's essentially removing one's safety margin (albeit less so with PLD-stacking). But you'd have to have far less passive tank mit (and scale TBs around that) and greater power in healer mit and DPS personals, etc., for it to offer enough control between rezzes to not just feel like a cluster****, I'd imagine.

I think the biggest point that makes it difficult to cut out tanks is the lack of aggro management tools, followed by just being able to survive tankbusters with how much of a gap there is in defense/hp stats between tanks and the other roles these days, though maybe a team of SCHs can still manage that part.

[Rithy255]

1 tank 3 dps clears much faster than 1 healer 3 dps. It isn't even close.

Tank can handle larger packs of mobs. DPS cannot without being healed considerably, thus losing out on dps from the healer.

This is just incorrect, I've ran dungeons with 3 dps and one healer and been able to pull both mob packs, while the healer still fits in a lot of dps, It's really not that difficult lol, tanks are not needed in dungeons for a quick run.