#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Alice_Rivers]

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I think we're broadly in agreement. I too think it would be a waste to remove the party support elements of tank kits, there are times after all where the healer is preoccupied and someone's near death experience goes unnoticed, having a tank able to step in with cover/TBN/aurora/nascent flash (not healing the WAR as well because that's just stupid, SE) is good party design. Similarly having partywide mit OR shield OR heal (looking at you PLD/WAR) is also good party design and helpful to a healer without replacing them, I like good party interactions and if the tank wants to save me an oGCD or better a GCD then great, thank you.

My main problem with tanks though, as I said above is their self sustain more than their party sustain, and I don't want to remove that feeling of power or the agency that a tank has. I would be okay with Rampart being 30% mit plus 20% additional healing received if the content did enough damage to justify that, same thing with Guardian, I don't mind 40% mit plus some shield if there is some tank buster or something that validates it. So for me, weakening some things, particularly in the WAR healing department (someone suggested making things like Bloodwhetting's heal add shield HP instead and I think that could work, especially if it used a buff slot and had limited stacks similar to how Haima works) but more importantly increasing incoming damage by orders of magnitude to actually make the power that tanks and healers already have justifiable.

Further to the "it's not just tanks that are unduly powerful" argument, how often in 8-man content do you see a SCH or a SGE make their AST/WHM co-healer unnecessary? I see it all the time, I don't see it as a job design problem per se, I see it more as an encounter design problem, if you're going to have two tanks and two healers, all four of those players should be active participants, not two of them active and two on the bench waiting for their counterpart to screw up.

[Rithy255]

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I definitely agree with most things you're saying at least I want both tanks and healers to take a broader approach to both supporting each other and the party, rather then stuff like one tank soloing the responsibility of the party, funnily enough I enjoy being a team player in a team based game ^^

It's odd that warrior in particular gets some extra bonuses to their healing in general, nascent flash healing both you and ally and shake it off regen are the most odd to me, we could do without warrior regen (still keep the base heal, or remove base heal for regen), theirs certainly cases that point to tank sustain being a little bit too much.

I'd argue back a little bit that self sustain isn't as big as a issue as Mitigation levels, though both work together to create a state where tanks can keep themselves alive with no real help, I think broader changes like general adjusting tanks selfish survivability (which can be mitigative and sustain values on war) to a lower extent I feel is the way to go without obviously just removing all forms of sustain which seems to be a common argument.

I also agree that SCH/SGE take up WHM/AST niche too much, I think the barrier/pure split wasn't the best idea and it's funny that they're giving the pure healers more shielding/mit abilities in DT while giving sage/sch more pure healing utility... almost to sort of try to fix things? I personally would want both healers and both tanks to fill a important part in the party, I also think theirs a point that white mage is entirely already outclassed by AST when shield healers are also.

I think it comes down to a encounter and job design issue, healers and tanks should be designed better, though I think encounter design is actually the main issue at least 70% of the issue we have with how current healers aren't really that needed.

[CKNovel]

I think we're broadly in agreement. I too think it would be a waste to remove the party support elements of tank kits, there are times after all where the healer is preoccupied and someone's near death experience goes unnoticed, having a tank able to step in with cover/TBN/aurora/nascent flash (not healing the WAR as well because that's just stupid, SE) is good party design. Similarly having partywide mit OR shield OR heal (looking at you PLD/WAR) is also good party design and helpful to a healer without replacing them, I like good party interactions and if the tank wants to save me an oGCD or better a GCD then great, thank you.

I would absolutely trade self sustain for better mitigation, shield/reduction instead of raw healing, that's a compromise I can happily accept.
I doubt WAR will complain if you trade their healing for shields, especially in raiding where self healing becomes less valuable.
The current content also doesn't do enough damage, if you check the FRU clear it survives the LB tank check with an LB2.

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

[Rithy255]

I would absolutely trade self sustain for better mitigation, shield/reduction instead of raw healing, that's a compromise I can happily accept.
I doubt WAR will complain if you trade their healing for shields, especially in raiding where self healing becomes less valuable.
The current content also doesn't do enough damage, if you check the FRU clear it survives the LB tank check with an LB2.

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

If 4 divine veils and clemency (which is cure 2 that you can't spam as much but heals you 50%) can replace the entire healer role, it's a issue with how fights are designed and not the roles itself.

Clemency also funnily enough wouldn't be a issue if tanks and healers had similar damage outputs because having 4 paladins spamming it 40+ times should make hard fights pretty much impossible to clear.

[Aravell]

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

I think Clemency itself is fine, the 4 PLD clear is more a problem with the incoming damage than PLD itself. If you can clear by spamming Clemency, then that means you can also just spam Cure II at those points, that's far too little damage in what's supposed to be a difficult fight.

The largest problem is still that the dev team views more healing as just higher damage, so we end up with a ton of mitigation checks but very few actual heal checks. If we can get more actual heal checks, that would also solve groups completely removing the healer role because then you'd actually need at least one healer to clear.