Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[ForteNightshade]

Well, yes, so? After an entire expansion of taking cocks because of smn, and after this one which is taking cocks anyway, perhaps the time has come to push this class a little.
Then you're basically saying: that if this is done, that's it, the static and PF will close the doors to the melees for the free slot because it's either RDM or nothing?.

So you're solution to poor balancing decisions is to double down and make even worse balancing decisions? Genius.

And yes, PF would absolutely locking RDM in. They already lock underperforming jobs out even when the difference isn't necessarily huge. Your proposed buff to Red Mage would make it so widely superior that'd you be a fool not to bring it. Just to emphasise this point, several World Prog groups brought Red Mage for FRU prog despite how much weaker it is than melee. You really don't think those numbers would explode if it was pushing out Dragoon or Samurai levels? I can guarantee you right now every single FRU group would consistent of RDM/PIC bar none. That's like giving Viper an on demand, instant cast Raise and then being all Surprised Pikachu when every group brings one.

And yet, and yet, the logs show how this downtime ultimately doesn't weigh that much on performance. However, remaining firmly above the pranged and the RDM.

No, no. You don't get to move the goalposts. This has nothing to do with your ridiculous RDM buffs. I'm not even disagreeing it could use a buff. Just not anywhere close to the absurdity you want. Especially not when raise still exists. Although, I honestly think they should just axe it entirely so the casters can be balanced against the melee better.

If melee has uptime problems it's because basically either a strategy to follow as a robot hasn't been studied yet, or the fight doesn't allow it, it's not like you can invent much.
A caster must always weigh their resources to achieve movement. but unlike melee, which once the strategy is ready, you just have to follow it and inevitably find yourself next to the boss, the caster has to think and vary his rotation, even arriving at compromises for damage/movement /strategy.

You're acting like mechanics in this game aren't incredibly scripted and casters need to make on demand decisions. They don't. Just like the melee, you'll find a strat that maximizes cast times, which is considerably easier to do because you never have to worry about being in range. If say, M4S demands Triple Cast for Witch Hunt, you'll use Triple Cast every single pull at that exact spot no matter what. You aren't thinking and varying your rotation. At least not to the extent you're trying to insinuate. Maybe BLM gets a proc here or there that allows some finesse. That's more or less the same as melee needing to run out at exactly the right moment to greed a GCD.

Ironically, BLM is the only caster where this is applicable and it already does melee damage.

[Supersnow845]

So you're solution to poor balancing decisions is to double down and make even worse balancing decisions? Genius.

And yes, PF would absolutely locking RDM in. They already lock underperforming jobs out even when the difference isn't necessarily huge. Your proposed buff to Red Mage would make it so widely superior that'd you be a fool not to bring it. Just to emphasise this point, several World Prog groups brought Red Mage for FRU prog despite how much weaker it is than melee. You really don't think those numbers would explode if it was pushing out Dragoon or Samurai levels? I can guarantee you right now every single FRU group would consistent of RDM/PIC bar none. That's like giving Viper an on demand, instant cast Raise and then being all Surprised Pikachu when every group brings one.



No, no. You don't get to move the goalposts. This has nothing to do with your ridiculous RDM buffs. I'm not even disagreeing it could use a buff. Just not anywhere close to the absurdity you want. Especially not when raise still exists. Although, I honestly think they should just axe it entirely so the casters can be balanced against the melee better.



You're acting like mechanics in this game aren't incredibly scripted and casters need to make on demand decisions. They don't. Just like the melee, you'll find a strat that maximizes cast times, which is considerably easier to do because you never have to worry about being in range. If say, M4S demands Triple Cast for Witch Hunt, you'll use Triple Cast every single pull at that exact spot no matter what. You aren't thinking and varying your rotation. At least not to the extent you're trying to insinuate. Maybe BLM gets a proc here or there that allows some finesse. That's more or less the same as melee needing to run out at exactly the right moment to greed a GCD.

Ironically, BLM is the only caster where this is applicable and it already does melee damage.

This game is incredibly scripted which is why cast difficulty is meaningless

But melee uptime is such a difficult consideration they must be compensated for it

Which is especially ironic given you used triple cast as a consideration where you actively want to use that in the burst window so a strat that uses triple cast to force the BLM to move that much is ironically caster unfriendly

Not having a consensus within the community is no excuse to keep things as they are. First, we are not professionals being paid to balance the DPS jobs. We can only give suggestions, and of course these will always be different, coming from people without any experience in developing games. Second, we don't know if there's a consensus within the development team.

There is no excuse to release an Ultimate with a job performing almost 10% above the average melee DPS. Patches are longer now. The reason for getting no PCT nerfs or a rework before FRU was given by them multiple times, and it's not difficulty or lack of consensus. They think the job will become unpopular, so they choose to release a broken Savage tier and Ultimate, instead of fixing game balance. Meanwhile, PCT is so popular that we have 30+ PCT FRU clears for every SMN clear.

You misunderstand, I’m not saying the forums needs a consensus to apply feedback I’m saying “just nerf PCT” isn’t as easy as people imply it to be because everyone has a different baseline for where it should perform in what content

Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”

[brinn12]

You misunderstand, I’m not saying the forums needs a consensus to apply feedback I’m saying “just nerf PCT” isn’t as easy as people imply it to be because everyone has a different baseline for where it should perform in what content

Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

[Supersnow845]

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

A 5-7% nerf puts it distantly behind the melee in full uptime which risks it falling into caster raise territory and still leaves if 5-10% overpowered in FRU, that’s like a worst of both worlds situation

[brinn12]

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

[Supersnow845]

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

And I’ve also spent the entire thread being pro PCT nerfs as well, I haven’t ignored anyone. I’ve specifically pointed out that you need to be very careful with nerfs to preserve the rough balance that existed before PCT was introduced

My point about “your suggested nerf might be another’s don’t do this under any circumstances” is because PCT’s current balance exists on an axis between its gameplay identity and its balance between two types of content.

PCT is far enough ahead in ultimate that balancing it in ultimate without changing motif design (which is horribly unpopular) would shove it so far down in savage as to be next to useless. PCT must comfortably clear the rezzer’s in full uptime due to the utility value of rezz. So it must be somewhat in contention for the 4th party spot alongside the caster slot, but if you put it there (somewhere around 4-5% stronger than RDM) it still comfortably clears everyone else in ultimate

So your “just apply x% potency nerf” where are you planning to put it? If you go too hard you push it below RDM and make it a dead pick in savage, don’t go far enough and it remains the clear winner in ultimate

Square at most will do one more balance patch before 7.2 savage. Just as it’s current unfair to BLM to be shoved aside in FRU in favour of PCT it’s also unfair to nerf PCT through the floor which may make it a dead pick in savage. RPR didn’t have this issue because the caster raise doesn’t exist in melee. All melees are equally fighting for 1-2 slots in the party. While the casters are basically fighting for two different niches in the party

[Carighan]

PCT is far enough ahead in ultimate that balancing it in ultimate without changing motif design (which is horribly unpopular) would shove it so far down in savage as to be next to useless.

This is just not true, we have statistics available publicly after all.

If you nerf Picto by 8% overall, it'd drop to or just above Black Mage, Reaper and Ninja in rDPS, but below Dragoon and Monk.

In Savage this would drop it to just below Reaper, but still the entire "gap" (~6%) ahead of the 5 utility-burdered jobs RDM, SMN, BRD, MCH and DNC.

So in other words, in Ultimate it'd be very marginally stronger than it ideally would need to be (ideal nerf ~10%), but in Savage it'd be very marginally weaker (ideal nerf ~6% or 7%).

Consider how tiny a variation that is. We're talking 2% DPS difference in either direction. It's an absolutely negligible amount considering how trivially it can be achieved (cut all potencies by 8% across the board). And that's assuming one would even use an overall nerf, like I said before the smarter way to achieve this 8% reduction is an ~14% nerf to the Muses + Starry + Drip + Holy + Comet, because this affects the downtime-gain very slightly more in the final result than the straight casting setup, meaning it'd be more like 9% in Ult and 7% in Savage. But again, that's not even needed. Considering how Reaper and Ninja and so very much aren't hardblocked from Savage, someone else dealing their damage while being highly mobile and bringing a raid buff like them isn't going to get blocked, especially because the caster alternative (Black Mage) comes with the moody attitude you always get when you let a black mage into your party. :P

[ForteNightshade]

This game is incredibly scripted which is why cast difficulty is meaningless

But melee uptime is such a difficult consideration they must be compensated for it

Which is especially ironic given you used triple cast as a consideration where you actively want to use that in the burst window so a strat that uses triple cast to force the BLM to move that much is ironically caster unfriendly

Name a single fight where you lack the following as a Caster through no fault of your own:

1. Ability to slidecast
2. Movement resources (Triplecast, Swiftcast, Acceleration and etc)
3. Can preposition ahead of time

Conversely, M4 alone has several mechanics that force melee off the boss with no way to adjust or greed. Or doing so will risk wiping the group. Furthermore, uptime strats are inherently riskier and wouldn't really be necessary in a double caster comp.

As for my Triplecast example. Pulling it out of raid buffs is a significantly smaller loss than a melee needing to result to "Piercing Talon" So much in fact, prior to buffing it after five years, it was actually better to simply use our AoE combo, specifically with DRG!!!!!!. Regardless, like I already said, Black Mage competes with melee damage. Therefore, it's a moot point. It makes comparable sacrifices (moving Triplecast) that melee do (using range GCDs) while dealing comparable damage.

[Supersnow845]

Name a single fight where you lack the following as a Caster through no fault of your own:

1. Ability to slidecast
2. Movement resources (Triplecast, Swiftcast, Acceleration and etc)
3. Can preposition ahead of time

Conversely, M4 alone has several mechanics that force melee off the boss with no way to adjust or greed. Or doing so will risk wiping the group. Furthermore, uptime strats are inherently riskier and wouldn't really be necessary in a double caster comp.

As for my Triplecast example. Pulling it out of raid buffs is a significantly smaller loss than a melee needing to result to "Piercing Talon" So much in fact, prior to buffing it after five years, it was actually better to simply use our AoE combo, specifically with DRG!!!!!!. Regardless, like I already said, Black Mage competes with melee damage. Therefore, it's a moot point. It makes comparable sacrifices (moving Triplecast) that melee do (using range GCDs) while dealing comparable damage.

That’s basically what the other person was trying to explain to you

M4 has a few GCD’s that force you off the boss with no possible way to alleviate it; you just have to take the downtime. But other than that basically everyone just does this fight with melee uptime strats (not that you really have to vary almost any strat to actually give melee good uptime the default strat just has melee uptime)

Meanwhile you are reducing caster uptime concerns to “lol just do it”. When you are progging a fight you have a limited number of uptime tools for movement and you have to learn over multiple pulls when to use them, which one to use where and how to minimise DPS loss. You often have to go back change and correct your plan over time to ensure you maximise it and sometimes you still run short on casts

So basically you are comparing the fact that melees have a few instances of enforced downtime but basically get their theoretical maximum by default to casters who theoretically have higher uptime (except in instances where there is simply too much movement to handle which affects PCT and RDM worse) but actually have to learn to map out their entire rotation to facilitate it

In that setting I see caster as the harder role but back when uptime concerns of the melee affects danger for everyone I saw melee as the harder role

[ForteNightshade]

Meanwhile you are reducing caster uptime concerns to “lol just do it”. When you are progging a fight

Yes, because we're talking about overall job balance. You don't balance jobs around prog because everyone is playing safe. You seem to think melee just greed every GCD easily without the slightest thought unless the mechanic forces them off. During prog, any good melee (or tank, for that matter) is dropping several GCDs because it's not worth risking a pull to optimize their uptime. How is that different than the casters giving up casts? Both roles play safe for prog.

Regardless, it's irrelevant to discussing job balance. You need to balance around what the jobs are capable of when played properly, i.e. when melee greed every GCD they can and casters aren't losing casts. Which is where the problem with Picto represents itself. The job is basically good at everything. Like I said previously, it has both raid utility and a buff, flexible mobility and deals the highest damage. There's zero reason it should be pulling ahead of Black Mage, Samurai or Viper when all three jobs entire relevance revolves around damage. What's the point of a selfish DPS when the job with a raid buff beats it any way? And that's in Savage where the discrepancy isn't nearly as bad. FRU is just downright ridiculous. You are actively griefing your party to not have Picto.