Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[brinn12]

It’s not really so simple. For example nobody here can come to a consensus on how to nerf it. People seem to broadly agree on two points

1) it needs a nerf
2) don’t change it’s gameplay identity

Which presents a problem as PCT’s gameplay identity is why it’s unbalanced. So how would you do a nerf in this case. What are you aiming for with a nerf. Are you aiming for ultimate balance. What level of savage balance is worth ultimate balance and vice versa

Not having a consensus within the community is no excuse to keep things as they are. First, we are not professionals being paid to balance the DPS jobs. We can only give suggestions, and of course these will always be different, coming from people without any experience in developing games. Second, we don't know if there's a consensus within the development team.

There is no excuse to release an Ultimate with a job performing almost 10% above the average melee DPS. Patches are longer now. The reason for getting no PCT nerfs or a rework before FRU was given by them multiple times, and it's not difficulty or lack of consensus. They think the job will become unpopular, so they choose to release a broken Savage tier and Ultimate, instead of fixing game balance. Meanwhile, PCT is so popular that we have 30+ PCT FRU clears for every SMN clear.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, yes, so? After an entire expansion of taking cocks because of smn, and after this one which is taking cocks anyway, perhaps the time has come to push this class a little.
Then you're basically saying: that if this is done, that's it, the static and PF will close the doors to the melees for the free slot because it's either RDM or nothing?.

So you're solution to poor balancing decisions is to double down and make even worse balancing decisions? Genius.

And yes, PF would absolutely locking RDM in. They already lock underperforming jobs out even when the difference isn't necessarily huge. Your proposed buff to Red Mage would make it so widely superior that'd you be a fool not to bring it. Just to emphasise this point, several World Prog groups brought Red Mage for FRU prog despite how much weaker it is than melee. You really don't think those numbers would explode if it was pushing out Dragoon or Samurai levels? I can guarantee you right now every single FRU group would consistent of RDM/PIC bar none. That's like giving Viper an on demand, instant cast Raise and then being all Surprised Pikachu when every group brings one.

And yet, and yet, the logs show how this downtime ultimately doesn't weigh that much on performance. However, remaining firmly above the pranged and the RDM.

No, no. You don't get to move the goalposts. This has nothing to do with your ridiculous RDM buffs. I'm not even disagreeing it could use a buff. Just not anywhere close to the absurdity you want. Especially not when raise still exists. Although, I honestly think they should just axe it entirely so the casters can be balanced against the melee better.

If melee has uptime problems it's because basically either a strategy to follow as a robot hasn't been studied yet, or the fight doesn't allow it, it's not like you can invent much.
A caster must always weigh their resources to achieve movement. but unlike melee, which once the strategy is ready, you just have to follow it and inevitably find yourself next to the boss, the caster has to think and vary his rotation, even arriving at compromises for damage/movement /strategy.

You're acting like mechanics in this game aren't incredibly scripted and casters need to make on demand decisions. They don't. Just like the melee, you'll find a strat that maximizes cast times, which is considerably easier to do because you never have to worry about being in range. If say, M4S demands Triple Cast for Witch Hunt, you'll use Triple Cast every single pull at that exact spot no matter what. You aren't thinking and varying your rotation. At least not to the extent you're trying to insinuate. Maybe BLM gets a proc here or there that allows some finesse. That's more or less the same as melee needing to run out at exactly the right moment to greed a GCD.

Ironically, BLM is the only caster where this is applicable and it already does melee damage.

[Ggwppino]

So you're solution to poor balancing decisions is to double down and make even worse balancing decisions? Genius.

And yes, PF would absolutely locking RDM in. They already lock underperforming jobs out even when the difference isn't necessarily huge. Your proposed buff to Red Mage would make it so widely superior that'd you be a fool not to bring it. Just to emphasise this point, several World Prog groups brought Red Mage for FRU prog despite how much weaker it is than melee. You really don't think those numbers would explode if it was pushing out Dragoon or Samurai levels? I can guarantee you right now every single FRU group would consistent of RDM/PIC bar none. That's like giving Viper an on demand, instant cast Raise and then being all Surprised Pikachu when every group brings one.

- The rdm, basically, is brought by the groups competing for the first clear or for the first week. The double ress to obtain mechanical information as quickly as possible in order to draw up a strategy is priceless. I don't doubt it. But these groups can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
- Then there are the static ones and the PFs where their purpose is to Parse, and those put the lock on slots regardless to have the best comp to knock out the boss at the best time. Everything to have the best parse.
- Then there are speed runners, and clearly, like parsers, they target a specific comp.
- And then there are the classic groups that progs and clear following a guide.

Imagine the announcements on discord, on the forum, on reddit, on the game of desperate people who are only looking for RDM or nothing, they prefer not to play.
It's one thing to have the EW mch that didn't let you clear for 1% and therefore they excluded it because it was a frightening nerf to the party, its one is exclude everything except rdm and risk not to play.

Being serious for a moment, realistically an announcement on the free slot will be: we are looking for any melee/BLM/RDM/*PCT*
rather than:
we are looking for any melee excluding x (x already in slot 1).

No, no. You don't get to move the goalposts. This has nothing to do with your ridiculous RDM buffs.

No, no, the RDM buff has nothing to do with it.
It was just a way to draw attention to the fact that with all the downtime that is present, melee are still left with a very significant gap compared to the pranged and the RDM.

Basically I agree that melee in full uptime should do more damage, precisely to make up for the fact that in fights there are downtimes that don't make them perform at 100%, unlike the other classes, but even with all those downtime, however melee perform much better, well, make your own conclusions.

The buff RDM must be there exclusively for it to have appeal as caster.

You're acting like mechanics in this game aren't incredibly scripted and casters need to make on demand decisions. They don't. Just like the melee, you'll find a strat that maximizes cast times, which is considerably easier to do because you never have to worry about being in range.

Um sure, of course, since the fights are Swiss chronometers with just a couple of variations.
It's a way to underline that the "uptime problem" of melee is more something related to strat and fighting.
If you lose it, it's probably because of the strat, if you lose it it's because of the fight and you can't do anything about it, it's not a predominant factor for the player.
For the caster, however, the uptime needs to be found. He finds it once, sure, but he has to find it. But the key point is that casters often have to make compromises to achieve uptime: Often even giving up something.
(Uhm, Actually The BLM now has no proc)

[Supersnow845]

So you're solution to poor balancing decisions is to double down and make even worse balancing decisions? Genius.

And yes, PF would absolutely locking RDM in. They already lock underperforming jobs out even when the difference isn't necessarily huge. Your proposed buff to Red Mage would make it so widely superior that'd you be a fool not to bring it. Just to emphasise this point, several World Prog groups brought Red Mage for FRU prog despite how much weaker it is than melee. You really don't think those numbers would explode if it was pushing out Dragoon or Samurai levels? I can guarantee you right now every single FRU group would consistent of RDM/PIC bar none. That's like giving Viper an on demand, instant cast Raise and then being all Surprised Pikachu when every group brings one.



No, no. You don't get to move the goalposts. This has nothing to do with your ridiculous RDM buffs. I'm not even disagreeing it could use a buff. Just not anywhere close to the absurdity you want. Especially not when raise still exists. Although, I honestly think they should just axe it entirely so the casters can be balanced against the melee better.



You're acting like mechanics in this game aren't incredibly scripted and casters need to make on demand decisions. They don't. Just like the melee, you'll find a strat that maximizes cast times, which is considerably easier to do because you never have to worry about being in range. If say, M4S demands Triple Cast for Witch Hunt, you'll use Triple Cast every single pull at that exact spot no matter what. You aren't thinking and varying your rotation. At least not to the extent you're trying to insinuate. Maybe BLM gets a proc here or there that allows some finesse. That's more or less the same as melee needing to run out at exactly the right moment to greed a GCD.

Ironically, BLM is the only caster where this is applicable and it already does melee damage.

This game is incredibly scripted which is why cast difficulty is meaningless

But melee uptime is such a difficult consideration they must be compensated for it

Which is especially ironic given you used triple cast as a consideration where you actively want to use that in the burst window so a strat that uses triple cast to force the BLM to move that much is ironically caster unfriendly

Not having a consensus within the community is no excuse to keep things as they are. First, we are not professionals being paid to balance the DPS jobs. We can only give suggestions, and of course these will always be different, coming from people without any experience in developing games. Second, we don't know if there's a consensus within the development team.

There is no excuse to release an Ultimate with a job performing almost 10% above the average melee DPS. Patches are longer now. The reason for getting no PCT nerfs or a rework before FRU was given by them multiple times, and it's not difficulty or lack of consensus. They think the job will become unpopular, so they choose to release a broken Savage tier and Ultimate, instead of fixing game balance. Meanwhile, PCT is so popular that we have 30+ PCT FRU clears for every SMN clear.

You misunderstand, I’m not saying the forums needs a consensus to apply feedback I’m saying “just nerf PCT” isn’t as easy as people imply it to be because everyone has a different baseline for where it should perform in what content

Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”

[brinn12]

You misunderstand, I’m not saying the forums needs a consensus to apply feedback I’m saying “just nerf PCT” isn’t as easy as people imply it to be because everyone has a different baseline for where it should perform in what content

Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

[Supersnow845]

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

A 5-7% nerf puts it distantly behind the melee in full uptime which risks it falling into caster raise territory and still leaves if 5-10% overpowered in FRU, that’s like a worst of both worlds situation

[brinn12]

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

[Tigore]

I think Snow is trying to hint at a couple more stipulations. The PCT's don't want to risk their DPS ever falling below the raise DPS. Since Savage runs are more common than Ultimate's, we are going to see the PCT's weak end a little more than their strong end. Unless we also apply the suggestion to give 1 or 2 muse casts a temporary fast cast from subtractive combos, we might end up getting a meme of the raise casters being better than PCT if a 6% average nerf lands them just above RDM. Again, due to their weak side being exposed more from full uptime Savage fights.

With this in mind, we should weaken the utility so we can justify a higher personal DPS standing. Would something like this be better?

Across the board potency nerf: 2 - 3%
Starry Muse: 2 - 3% raid buff
Tempera Coat: 10% max HP self shield
Tempera Grassa: 5% max HP raid shield

[Supersnow845]

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

And I’ve also spent the entire thread being pro PCT nerfs as well, I haven’t ignored anyone. I’ve specifically pointed out that you need to be very careful with nerfs to preserve the rough balance that existed before PCT was introduced

My point about “your suggested nerf might be another’s don’t do this under any circumstances” is because PCT’s current balance exists on an axis between its gameplay identity and its balance between two types of content.

PCT is far enough ahead in ultimate that balancing it in ultimate without changing motif design (which is horribly unpopular) would shove it so far down in savage as to be next to useless. PCT must comfortably clear the rezzer’s in full uptime due to the utility value of rezz. So it must be somewhat in contention for the 4th party spot alongside the caster slot, but if you put it there (somewhere around 4-5% stronger than RDM) it still comfortably clears everyone else in ultimate

So your “just apply x% potency nerf” where are you planning to put it? If you go too hard you push it below RDM and make it a dead pick in savage, don’t go far enough and it remains the clear winner in ultimate

Square at most will do one more balance patch before 7.2 savage. Just as it’s current unfair to BLM to be shoved aside in FRU in favour of PCT it’s also unfair to nerf PCT through the floor which may make it a dead pick in savage. RPR didn’t have this issue because the caster raise doesn’t exist in melee. All melees are equally fighting for 1-2 slots in the party. While the casters are basically fighting for two different niches in the party

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Holy cow, is this thread still going? The issue must be even more viable that I thought! x)

Gotta grab some coffee and enjoy reading through.