Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[brinn12]

You misunderstand, I’m not saying the forums needs a consensus to apply feedback I’m saying “just nerf PCT” isn’t as easy as people imply it to be because everyone has a different baseline for where it should perform in what content

Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

[Supersnow845]

I don't think I misunderstand anything. It seems you don't understand the root of the problem, which is the lack of job nerfs in FFXIV. You're implying it's hard to solve the situation. It is not. Any nerf is better than no nerf. Had they simply nerfed 5~7% of PCT's damage(on top of job buffs), we could have actual DPS checks in Savage and FRU. This is very easy to do with a calculator, and there is no need to overcomplicate the situation to solve it short term, which is what you are doing.

The short term solution to balance OP jobs WAS, and still IS, easy in this game. It was easy for RPR, it is easy for PCT. Fights and rotations are predictable, spreadsheetable. Increase and decrease numbers accordingly. The developers have been avoiding job nerfs for years, for the sake of "keeping jobs popular". Every expansion released now serves the purpose of scraping the work they were doing in the previous expansion. Multiple patches buffing jobs, until level cap gets increased and the game is broken again. The issue is much bigger than the toolkit of one job. PCT was not the first OP job by design, and won't be the last. Commiting to nerfs is more important than reworking PCT's toolkit.

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

A 5-7% nerf puts it distantly behind the melee in full uptime which risks it falling into caster raise territory and still leaves if 5-10% overpowered in FRU, that’s like a worst of both worlds situation

[brinn12]

It’s funny you mention RPR when RPR was never nerfed, everything was buffed over it. So your own “it’s so easy” is literally the suggestion everyone doesn’t want implemented

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

[Supersnow845]

...This is literally what I have pointed as the root of the problem, though? And my reason for mentioning RPR. The job SHOULD have been nerfed, this is always the easier solution, and it might be the only viable solution short term. Changing the value of variables in a code is easier than rewriting most of it.

1 - Nerfing jobs is not implemented in this game.
2 - New jobs must be OP by design, according to Yoshi-P.
3 - Rework PCT and you'll have the same issues for the next expansion.

Also, what do you mean by "everyone doesn't want implemented "? I'm not everyone. It seems you have been following this thread since the beggining and ignoring everyone who's saying the job should be nerfed, and yet you proceed to label people here for being selective about their opinions, as seen in the following statement:

>>>>>Your “just nerf PCT” might be another’s “I will accept literally any other kind of nerf besides what you suggested”<<<<<

When I think about it, the creator of this thread asked for PCT nerfs, so did many others.

And I’ve also spent the entire thread being pro PCT nerfs as well, I haven’t ignored anyone. I’ve specifically pointed out that you need to be very careful with nerfs to preserve the rough balance that existed before PCT was introduced

My point about “your suggested nerf might be another’s don’t do this under any circumstances” is because PCT’s current balance exists on an axis between its gameplay identity and its balance between two types of content.

PCT is far enough ahead in ultimate that balancing it in ultimate without changing motif design (which is horribly unpopular) would shove it so far down in savage as to be next to useless. PCT must comfortably clear the rezzer’s in full uptime due to the utility value of rezz. So it must be somewhat in contention for the 4th party spot alongside the caster slot, but if you put it there (somewhere around 4-5% stronger than RDM) it still comfortably clears everyone else in ultimate

So your “just apply x% potency nerf” where are you planning to put it? If you go too hard you push it below RDM and make it a dead pick in savage, don’t go far enough and it remains the clear winner in ultimate

Square at most will do one more balance patch before 7.2 savage. Just as it’s current unfair to BLM to be shoved aside in FRU in favour of PCT it’s also unfair to nerf PCT through the floor which may make it a dead pick in savage. RPR didn’t have this issue because the caster raise doesn’t exist in melee. All melees are equally fighting for 1-2 slots in the party. While the casters are basically fighting for two different niches in the party

[Carighan]

PCT is far enough ahead in ultimate that balancing it in ultimate without changing motif design (which is horribly unpopular) would shove it so far down in savage as to be next to useless.

This is just not true, we have statistics available publicly after all.

If you nerf Picto by 8% overall, it'd drop to or just above Black Mage, Reaper and Ninja in rDPS, but below Dragoon and Monk.

In Savage this would drop it to just below Reaper, but still the entire "gap" (~6%) ahead of the 5 utility-burdered jobs RDM, SMN, BRD, MCH and DNC.

So in other words, in Ultimate it'd be very marginally stronger than it ideally would need to be (ideal nerf ~10%), but in Savage it'd be very marginally weaker (ideal nerf ~6% or 7%).

Consider how tiny a variation that is. We're talking 2% DPS difference in either direction. It's an absolutely negligible amount considering how trivially it can be achieved (cut all potencies by 8% across the board). And that's assuming one would even use an overall nerf, like I said before the smarter way to achieve this 8% reduction is an ~14% nerf to the Muses + Starry + Drip + Holy + Comet, because this affects the downtime-gain very slightly more in the final result than the straight casting setup, meaning it'd be more like 9% in Ult and 7% in Savage. But again, that's not even needed. Considering how Reaper and Ninja and so very much aren't hardblocked from Savage, someone else dealing their damage while being highly mobile and bringing a raid buff like them isn't going to get blocked, especially because the caster alternative (Black Mage) comes with the moody attitude you always get when you let a black mage into your party. :P

[Supersnow845]

This is just not true, we have statistics available publicly after all.

If you nerf Picto by 8% overall, it'd drop to or just above Black Mage, Reaper and Ninja in rDPS, but below Dragoon and Monk.

In Savage this would drop it to just below Reaper, but still the entire "gap" (~6%) ahead of the 5 utility-burdered jobs RDM, SMN, BRD, MCH and DNC.

So in other words, in Ultimate it'd be very marginally stronger than it ideally would need to be (ideal nerf ~10%), but in Savage it'd be very marginally weaker (ideal nerf ~6% or 7%).

Consider how tiny a variation that is. We're talking 2% DPS difference in either direction. It's an absolutely negligible amount considering how trivially it can be achieved (cut all potencies by 8% across the board). And that's assuming one would even use an overall nerf, like I said before the smarter way to achieve this 8% reduction is an ~14% nerf to the Muses + Starry + Drip + Holy + Comet, because this affects the downtime-gain very slightly more in the final result than the straight casting setup, meaning it'd be more like 9% in Ult and 7% in Savage. But again, that's not even needed. Considering how Reaper and Ninja and so very much aren't hardblocked from Savage, someone else dealing their damage while being highly mobile and bringing a raid buff like them isn't going to get blocked, especially because the caster alternative (Black Mage) comes with the moody attitude you always get when you let a black mage into your party. :P

According to current savage statistics even using cDPS which massively biases PCT because of its design PCT is 9% ahead of RDM (it’s 7% ahead in rDPS) and that’s at max which biases PCT as well. Using the more even 90th PCT is ahead of RDM by 7% in savage. So an 8% nerf puts it below RDM in savage

Sure high performing players aren’t doing savage in 7.1 but jobs also received buffs in 7.1 so you can’t just ignore 7.1 data and only use 7.05

However if the data can play out that way I literally have zero opposition to that design