Out of touch? PLL

[Kes13a]

I mean, let's not pretend he is wrong. Yoshida himself even said ppl were complaining about difficulty when DT launched and they have repeatedly nerfed casual content if it was even slightly challanging and there is barely anything that requires your full attention. There is a reason they put a "very easy" option in msq content and fights like the solo duty in S9 require absolutely no input from the player who can just sit on the sidelines, go afk and let it play out.

Outside of disabled players, the inability to use 3 buttons, or heaven's forbid 5, is squarely on the shoulders of ppl who just don't want to even try but loudly exclaim that they should be the primary focus.

and lets not forget the people who scream "GATING" if things require anything reasonable... like knowing how to do your job past level 80....

[ovIm]

and lets not forget the people who scream "GATING" if things require anything reasonable... like knowing how to do your job past level 80....

I still remember when Steps of Faith was current content and people were lamenting that they could not just hit boss and dodge mechanics, instead having to actually understand the gimmicks of the encounter. The only adjustment Square should have done should have been an easier way to restart the instance if everyone knew they had failed...

[IDontPetLalas]

I still remember when Steps of Faith was current content and people were lamenting that they could not just hit boss and dodge mechanics, instead having to actually understand the gimmicks of the encounter. The only adjustment Square should have done should have been an easier way to restart the instance if everyone knew they had failed...

I find this FAR more interesting than " just hit boss and dodge mechanics". There's only so many AOEs, puddles, lasers, etc that a game can throw at me before I'll just say "screw it" and walk away. it's not enjoyable after a certain point. However, throw me into a beautifully designed dungeon, with an encounter that takes some knowledge of the boss and my skills- that is far more interesting.

As a simple example- it could be phases where attacking the boss with certain skills will kill me due to reflect that type of damage (like magic), or specific debuffs that require a healer to remove or the party gets wiped. It could get more complex in higher difficulty encounters. The point is that it's more interesting that just playing the "Simon says" or "dodge the bullet" type of encounters.

[lolnotacat]

I find this FAR more interesting than " just hit boss and dodge mechanics". There's only so many AOEs, puddles, lasers, etc that a game can throw at me before I'll just say "screw it" and walk away. it's not enjoyable after a certain point. However, throw me into a beautifully designed dungeon, with an encounter that takes some knowledge of the boss and my skills- that is far more interesting.

As a simple example- it could be phases where attacking the boss with certain skills will kill me due to reflect that type of damage (like magic), or specific debuffs that require a healer to remove or the party gets wiped. It could get more complex in higher difficulty encounters. The point is that it's more interesting that just playing the "Simon says" or "dodge the bullet" type of encounters.

Funny how you mentioned that. I haven't done any hardcore raiding in ages. Last time was during WotLK. So many of the fights had these kind of mechanics and they were so fun, albeit a bit frustrating sometimes, I'd love to have encounters like that in this game.

[Havenchild]

I just don't know where the comfortable middle-ground lies to make sure casuals remain welcomed while hardcore is kept enticed, especially when everyone's idea of "engaging" might differ from someone else. You can ask 10 different people here what they want and get 11 different answers.

Truth is, there is no topic of conversation currently that will go over well.

Make healer role more complex (rewarding gameplay) etc, and you lose alot of casuals in PF.
Make story encounters challenging, casuals struggle.
Make content catering to casual base, casuals want more, hardcore base complains
Make savage or ultimate encounters, casual complains..

The only metric that generally matters, is engagement numbers. That is the rule of law of MMOs regardless of what anyone wants. They can sprinkle content here and there for everyone and thats about it.

[IDontPetLalas]

Truth is, there is no topic of conversation currently that will go over well.

Make healer role more complex (rewarding gameplay) etc, and you lose alot of casuals in PF.
Make story encounters challenging, casuals struggle.
Make content catering to casual base, casuals want more, hardcore base complains
Make savage or ultimate encounters, casual complains..

The only metric that generally matters, is engagement numbers. That is the rule of law of MMOs regardless of what anyone wants. They can sprinkle content here and there for everyone and thats about it.

No, the only metric being "engagement metrics" is an oversimplification. That is not the "rule of MMOs". If it was that simple, then you could have drag any virtually anyone off the street and -voila- here is how your game is doing, this is precisely what needs to be done in order to make more money, and keep doing more money, for the amount of time that the company wants to make money.

People in "marketing" (and technically- I work in the Marketing division) routinely get feedback from different segments and their interests have to be reviewed and balanced - however that doesn't mean that each segment needs to be weighted equally. Square could decide (for example) that casuals are >>> the very hardcore if that fits their business model . It would then be more helpful if instead of promising they will do it "one day"- they explain that going forwards, the game direction will be more casual/mid- this way the very hardcore aren't misled.

[Havenchild]

No, the only metric being "engagement metrics" is an oversimplification. That is not the "rule of MMOs". If it was that simple, then you could have drag any virtually anyone off the street and -voila- here is how your game is doing, this is precisely what needs to be done in order to make more money, and keep doing more money, for the amount of time that the company wants to make money.

People in "marketing" (and technically- I work in the Marketing division) routinely get feedback from different segments and their interests have to be reviewed and balanced - however that doesn't mean that each segment needs to be weighted equally. Square could decide (for example) that casuals are >>> the very hardcore if that fits their business model . It would then be more helpful if instead of promising they will do it "one day"- they explain that going forwards, the game direction will be more casual/mid- this way the very hardcore aren't misled.

You can look at almost every big decision they have made from past nerfs to MSQ duties to job changes on all roles as a reflection of engagement metrics.

Steps of Faith nerf - Users getting barred by it
ARR MSQ nerf - User falloff before HW
Healer Kit nerf - Lack of active healers in PF, biggest complaint being "too complex"
Ast specifically, gets tweaked every expansion and for some time was the lowest played Healer.
Eureka nerf - less people in the instance, laxed requirements to proceed
Bozja nerf - see above

Engagement is superior for any company. It directly transfers to wealth. If your player engagement is low, people fall off, thus less money. Business 101

/thread- People literally saying they are leaving cause they don't find the specific content engaging enough.

Now you can cut the pie into categories to further analyze engagement metrics within certain domains, for example, savage content, understanding what types of mechanics and overall balance within encounters see the most clear rates tier for tier or understanding which classes are specifically popular over others vs the design of a particular encounter.

Same with something like crafting, being non-macroable in HW and how many crafters participated in that vs current last 5 years where all crafting is macroable and easily accessible. Notice they never went back to HW style crafting by and large, outside of a sprinkle for ishgard restoration. Metrics (and how that relates to their overall goal) matters most.

To say otherwise is folly. SE is a company first and foremost. They are always looking at numbers. When they make content for a particular base, say casuals and MSQ, they definitely are looking at how many people are proceeding through it and if/where there is fall off. If it's specifically jarring enough, they tend to employ a fix somewhere.

[Supersnow845]

Truth is, there is no topic of conversation currently that will go over well.

Make healer role more complex (rewarding gameplay) etc, and you lose alot of casuals in PF.
Make story encounters challenging, casuals struggle.
Make content catering to casual base, casuals want more, hardcore base complains
Make savage or ultimate encounters, casual complains..

The only metric that generally matters, is engagement numbers. That is the rule of law of MMOs regardless of what anyone wants. They can sprinkle content here and there for everyone and thats about it.

“Lose a lot of casuals in PF”

Where

The healer role is deader than dead in PF and phys ranged isn’t doing any better

You can’t kill what’s already dead