What to manage as a tank?

[BabyYoda]

Okay then next question. Do you think it feels good that your job is a “convenience” and not a need? Because to me it doesn’t. The fact that every time we get a new fight someone is able to do this shows there is a problem they won’t address. I want to be tested to the limits of my kit, not be tested on my 1 GCD spam uptime

If there is no tank the boss wallops the party in 20 seconds, if there is no DPS then the boss enrages 2 minutes in if not earlier to an add mechanic like dolls.

Being the role in a hard trinity that amounts to “you are only there because people aren’t good enough to get rid of you” doesn’t feel good when you want to feel powerful and feel like you meaningfully contributed to the party which is a big difference to comparing biking and driving across America because if you are good enough to dump the healer then your performance actually improves as shown with the M4 clear

AND ITS SO EASY TO FIX, just double the amount of raidwides or have bleeds that apply that can’t be mitigated and last a long time

Being a role of convenience (and in casual content it’s more being an enforced burden in DF) doesn’t feel good

I never seen a clear without a tank before I wonder why..
It is just a complete mess balance.. with as little things to manage as possible.

Tank role needs so much improvement to the point of overhauling the reason why they exist in the first place?

Healers do heal
Dps do dps
Tanks should mitigate and mitigating shouldn't be easy to do ad they are now

[CKNovel]

Okay then next question. Do you think it feels good that your job is a “convenience” and not a need?

For the 99.9% of players I've mentioned, it's so much a convenience it's borderline a need.
The same way your fridge, hot plate, vehicles and everything else are so convenient you can't imagine living without these.

The "No heal challenge" would equate to a Texan doing a challenge a 3-months only bike challenge.

Possible but so laborious.

I never seen a clear without a tank before I wonder why..

Because tanks have responsibilities that goes beyond restoring/covering HP.
You can read the whole topic to know what are those responsibilities.

The same way, TEA was never cleared without a healer, because they had a responsibility that went beyond HP.

[AmiableApkallu]

I never seen a clear without a tank before I wonder why

The exception that proves the rule: Rubicante EX was cleared without tanks when it was still current.

[Supersnow845]

For the 99.9% of players I've mentioned, it's so much a convenience it's borderline a need.
The same way your fridge, hot plate, vehicles and everything else are so convenient you can't imagine living without these.

The "No heal challenge" would equate to a Texan doing a challenge a 3-months only bike challenge.

Possible but so laborious.



Because tanks have responsibilities that goes beyond restoring/covering HP.
You can read the whole topic to know what are those responsibilities.

That’s not the question. It’s 99.9% in say TOP but the lower you go the easier it is, pick me up tank heavy groups for extremes are easy as hell these days and casual content actively encourages removal of healers. It doesn’t feel good to be the role that can be removed but your party probably isn’t good enough to do it, the other roles have inbuilt responsibilities no other role can do and feel like they meaningfully contribute to the party. If all encounters in the game could be effectively tanked by a WHM who did 30% more damage than you but you are slightly better at the tanking aspect would you like it?

Your reply to babyyoda implies tanks shouldn’t and can’t be removed because they have extra responsibilities but then your reasoning for healers basically amounts to “most people aren’t good enough”. Why can’t healers have these same level of responsibilities that make them unexcludable

The exception that proves the rule: Rubicante EX was cleared without tanks when it was still current.

I know you weren’t really making a point either way on my comment but rubicante is actually a perfect example of how healers feel all the time but for tanks. Rubicante never autos, his tankbusters hit like wet noodles and he ignores positioning 99% of the time, he is a boss that just doesn’t acknowledge tank is a role, and what do you know tanks hate that fight because they don’t feel necessary or respected in that fight

That’s how healers feel all the time

[BabyYoda]

For the 99.9% of players I've mentioned, it's so much a convenience it's borderline a need.
The same way your fridge, hot plate, vehicles and everything else are so convenient you can't imagine living without these.

The "No heal challenge" would equate to a Texan doing a challenge a 3-months only bike challenge.

Possible but so laborious.



Because tanks have responsibilities that goes beyond restoring/covering HP.
You can read the whole topic to know what are those responsibilities.

The same way, TEA was never cleared without a healer, because they had a responsibility that went beyond HP.

The game's designed around having dps to all jobs

But it isn't designed around giving all jobs heals! We have dedicated role for this their whole existing is to provide party mitigations and heals

Tank responsible to heal party? Is this even a logical?

[CKNovel]

That’s not the question. It’s 99.9% in say TOP but the lower you go the easier it is, pick me up tank heavy groups for extremes are easy as hell these days and casual content actively encourages removal of healers.

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.

Tank responsible to heal party? Is this even a logical?

Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

[Supersnow845]

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.




Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

Because I said it’s optimal to remove them in casual content and that is extremely common, ever tried to join as a healer to farm runs of things like moogle tomestone events. Even in casual DF content healers survive by nature of DF not letting you queue without a healer

And yes we are going in circles because (I’m not attacking here) you won’t answer my question. You keep saying “oh but this” “oh but that” but you won’t say whether you would feel good about your role functionally being only present because the party isn’t good enough to dump it off. thats the state healers are in now. You can say “oh but most people aren’t good enough to remove them” but you won’t answer if you would feel good about every tier people celebrating clearing the games hardest fights without you, being less efficient at your own role than another role in half the games content and surviving due to average player talent being low

Simply answer me that. If your favourite role was an enforced burden on the party in casual content and a victim of player induced necessity in high end content would you like that? Would you feel your role is impactful? Would you feel like your WOL who is meant to be the strongest was adequately represented in your job?

Because right now healers don’t and our jobs aren’t even fun to play while we deal with this problem

[BabyYoda]

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.




Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

So tanks do healer job and that's OK

DND and BG is different game with different mechanics
If we apply their logic info FFXIV the game will be a complete mess.

Tanks having healing spell every 180 s isn't a bad thing but at 25 sec ??????
And their heals is much more optimal than how healers do

You cannot acknowledge the fact that even other games tanks are responsible for aggro management and increase boss rage/ knocking boss down which is the fantasy of tanks in other games

If other games tanks are responsible for CC will you give it to tanks in ffxiv?
Current design do not allow that

[CKNovel]

Simply answer me that:
If your favourite role was an enforced burden on the party in casual content and a victim of player induced necessity in high end content would you like that?
Would you feel your role is impactful?
Would you feel like your WOL who is meant to be the strongest was adequately represented in your job?

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.

Tanks having healing spell every 180 s isn't a bad thing but at 25 sec ??????
And their heals is much more optimal than how healers do

You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

[BabyYoda]

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.




You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

I didn't play WoW but I wonder why people quits that game.. it must be sucks playing as a tank that have nothing to manage other than healing party..

Warrior can heal party while DPSing, Shake it off shield + heal + regen much more powerful than healers 120s cooldowns
PLD having both mitigation and great heals to party member.. much more optimal than healers healing self and party member at the same time.

while PLD you much stop casting DPS to heal but it is still doing 2 things at once healing self and party member.
Warrior is 100% much more optimal than WHM which is a healer that you HAVE to stop healing to do damage for most of its kit while it is their role to heal but not we got warrior which has oGCD 25s cooldown healing self and party member AND having mitigations AND self healing.

healing party member as a healer thing and it should be healer only..

This is exactly what is killing healer role.. tank do their thing and healer thing too..

it is just a cheap way to design a tank.. they must manage other things not party HP