What to manage as a tank?

[CKNovel]

That’s not the question. It’s 99.9% in say TOP but the lower you go the easier it is, pick me up tank heavy groups for extremes are easy as hell these days and casual content actively encourages removal of healers.

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.

Tank responsible to heal party? Is this even a logical?

Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

[Supersnow845]

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.




Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

Because I said it’s optimal to remove them in casual content and that is extremely common, ever tried to join as a healer to farm runs of things like moogle tomestone events. Even in casual DF content healers survive by nature of DF not letting you queue without a healer

And yes we are going in circles because (I’m not attacking here) you won’t answer my question. You keep saying “oh but this” “oh but that” but you won’t say whether you would feel good about your role functionally being only present because the party isn’t good enough to dump it off. thats the state healers are in now. You can say “oh but most people aren’t good enough to remove them” but you won’t answer if you would feel good about every tier people celebrating clearing the games hardest fights without you, being less efficient at your own role than another role in half the games content and surviving due to average player talent being low

Simply answer me that. If your favourite role was an enforced burden on the party in casual content and a victim of player induced necessity in high end content would you like that? Would you feel your role is impactful? Would you feel like your WOL who is meant to be the strongest was adequately represented in your job?

Because right now healers don’t and our jobs aren’t even fun to play while we deal with this problem

[BabyYoda]

We're going in circle there.
If it is encouraged to remove healer but PF is so difficult to fill with healers, why don't those PF open to tanks instead?
That situation alone is a contradiction to your statement that the game encourages removal of healers.

You're just taking a gimmick clear out of proportions.
And no, I did not said Tanks can't be replaced. I just said there was more responsibilities. You can remove a tank by stacking mitigation on DPS or letting the tank die then ressing them.
But that's so much hassle no one does this. Like with healers.




Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

So tanks do healer job and that's OK

DND and BG is different game with different mechanics
If we apply their logic info FFXIV the game will be a complete mess.

Tanks having healing spell every 180 s isn't a bad thing but at 25 sec ??????
And their heals is much more optimal than how healers do

You cannot acknowledge the fact that even other games tanks are responsible for aggro management and increase boss rage/ knocking boss down which is the fantasy of tanks in other games

If other games tanks are responsible for CC will you give it to tanks in ffxiv?
Current design do not allow that

[CKNovel]

Simply answer me that:
If your favourite role was an enforced burden on the party in casual content and a victim of player induced necessity in high end content would you like that?
Would you feel your role is impactful?
Would you feel like your WOL who is meant to be the strongest was adequately represented in your job?

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.

Tanks having healing spell every 180 s isn't a bad thing but at 25 sec ??????
And their heals is much more optimal than how healers do

You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

[BabyYoda]

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.




You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

I didn't play WoW but I wonder why people quits that game.. it must be sucks playing as a tank that have nothing to manage other than healing party..

Warrior can heal party while DPSing, Shake it off shield + heal + regen much more powerful than healers 120s cooldowns
PLD having both mitigation and great heals to party member.. much more optimal than healers healing self and party member at the same time.

while PLD you much stop casting DPS to heal but it is still doing 2 things at once healing self and party member.
Warrior is 100% much more optimal than WHM which is a healer that you HAVE to stop healing to do damage for most of its kit while it is their role to heal but not we got warrior which has oGCD 25s cooldown healing self and party member AND having mitigations AND self healing.

healing party member as a healer thing and it should be healer only..

This is exactly what is killing healer role.. tank do their thing and healer thing too..

it is just a cheap way to design a tank.. they must manage other things not party HP

[CKNovel]

I didn't play WoW but I wonder why people quits that game.. it must be sucks playing as a tank that have nothing to manage other than healing party..

WoW did a comeback since their lowest point during Shadowlands.
Healers in WoW have other things to do than HP management.

Also you should be aware that healers absolutely don't need to stop DPS to heal. Top healers will never GCD heal unless there's no target.
In case you missed it, that's exactly the complains from a major numbers of healers, they don't want to DPS, they want to heal.
The same way, another side of healers are complaining because they press the same GCD and reset the same dot to DPS.

You should be aware of the healer status, it's very disrecpectful to make claims and demand for changes when you play neither of the two roles.
Also I still see no data, only your opinion.

[BabyYoda]

WoW did a comeback since their lowest point during Shadowlands.
Healers in WoW have other things to do than HP management.

Also you should be aware that healers absolutely don't need to stop DPS to heal. Top healers will never GCD heal unless there's no target.
In case you missed it, that's exactly the complains from a major numbers of healers, they don't want to DPS, they want to heal.
The same way, another side of healers are complaining because they press the same GCD and reset the same dot to DPS.

You should be aware of the healer status, it's very disrecpectful to make claims and demand for changes when you play neither of the two roles.
Also I still see no data, only your opinion.

it is still lazy design choice.. just stop giving tanks 2 roles responsibility so they can have something to manage..

it is ok if you don't agree with me but I can say what I want and my opinion of tanks have nothing to manage is still true 100%.

usually tanks do CC.. rage management.. aggro management.. mitigation management

having non of that is how this role has been seen as second citizen healers.

I played tanks in ShB as my main and I know how this become role OP I switch to DPS after EW because how much braindead it become.

I don't have to provide you my credentials to view my point.. it is clear that second citizen healer role is the most dumb down jobs in the game.

"don't need to stop DPS to heal" is another argument can be dumb down easily.. you did gather your data based on 1 to 3% of people in the role.. so lame even to consider them as source for the rest of the playerbase.

design a game around high end players is what makes 2min meta a thing.. each expansion another dumb down version of the job.

even though their design on healers have been stopping DPS to do heals.. like lily system.. you must cast GCD heals to do damage.. but you didn't read data correctly.

in the end we request to Tank role to not be second citizen healers.. we ask them to be tanks.. mitigation management.. CC.. rage management.

[Supersnow845]

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.




You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

So we agree being an induced necessity in high end content doesn’t feel good but disagree whether healers qualify. What about casual content, it’s a lot harder to argue healers aren’t an enforced burden in casual content given the state of the tanks healing power. And I think this is an area where feelings can play into this a lot. I may not be good enough to do TOP with no healers but it doesn’t make me feel good about the state of my role, whereas this never happens with tanks or DPS so they never get the same negative feeling. Constantly being hammered by showing off the limited use of your role doesn’t feel good even if it’s a statistical minority

It’s hard to compare to WOW because while tank healing is way stronger the boss wallops you far far harder, doubling the tank healing but then having the boss hit you 4 times as hard is the equivalent of a 50% nerf to tank healing in 14. 14’s tank healing is unique is that it can outheal the damage output, it’s not triage, it’s just straight up effective healing

[CKNovel]

"don't need to stop DPS to heal" is another argument can be dumb down easily.. you did gather your data based on 1 to 3% of people in the role.. so lame even to consider them as source for the rest of the playerbase.

even though their design on healers have been stopping DPS to do heals.. like lily system.. you must cast GCD heals to do damage.. but you didn't read data correctly.

The data I used is based on all logged clear. That's insanely far from "1-3%".

As for the Lilies, I encourage you to read the WHM kit again. They're never a DPS loss at the minimum they're neutral, if anything they're far more often a DPS gain.

So we agree being an induced necessity in high end content doesn’t feel good but disagree whether healers qualify. What about casual content, it’s a lot harder to argue healers aren’t an enforced burden in casual content given the state of the tanks healing power. And I think this is an area where feelings can play into this a lot.

I'm convinced you're just bored as a healer and trying to find the culprit of your frustration. The intention is commendable, but the execution isn't great.
As I've said before, nerfing others roles won't make yours any funnier. That's the crab mentality, feeling that at least you're not alone in the bucket.
Take a look at the physical range who would be replaced if it wasn't for the role buff. Nerfing all other DPS down to their level won't solve the problem, just put it under the carpet to justify the injustice.

As for WoW, there's literally memes about how it's straight up to run some solo endgame content as a tank due to how their survivability is insanely high and scales on the player number.
You'd be surprised by the tank survivability. Imagine if TBN had 1 second cooldown and DRK would consistently be at the risk of overcapping MP?
It's just that healers have other responsibilities than tank HP.

[Supersnow845]

The data I used is based on all logged clear. That's insanely far from "1-3%".

As for the Lilies, I encourage you to read the WHM kit again. They're never a DPS loss at the minimum they're neutral, if anything they're far more often a DPS gain.




I'm convinced you're just bored as a healer and trying to find the culprit of your frustration. The intention is commendable, but the execution isn't great.
As I've said before, nerfing others roles won't make yours any funnier. That's the crab mentality, feeling that at least you're not alone in the bucket.
Take a look at the physical range who would be replaced if it wasn't for the role buff. Nerfing all other DPS down to their level won't solve the problem, just put it under the carpet to justify the injustice.

As for WoW, there's literally memes about how it's straight up to run some solo endgame content as a tank due to how their survivability is insanely high and scales on the player number.
You'd be surprised by the tank survivability. Imagine if TBN had 1 second cooldown and DRK would consistently be at the risk of overcapping MP?
It's just that healers have other responsibilities than tank HP.

Why wouldn’t I be bored at healing, healing isn’t fun. This isn’t crab mentality, I don’t want to nerf everyone else so they can feel as bad as me I want targeted nerfs to problematic classes that directly contribute to why me playing a healer isn’t fun. You go the other way you refuse to consider nerfs to your own classes but won’t admit when your classes being problematic directly impacts other classes. My role straight up isn’t fun in casual content because the tank does my job for me, sure my damage is still boring but the core of my role is healing, and you are doing that for me, of course I see that as a problem, I don’t understand how you can be so blinded by your protection of your own role that you don’t see this. I’ve straight up called for nerfs for my own main (PCT), I know when classes need to change, I don’t see people pointing out flaws in my favourite jobs because it impacts them as targeting my fun. I sympathise with regen healers who feel like they are being shut out by how much shield healers dominate in healing design, I support something like non mitigation bleeds that shield healers suck at healing to give regen healers more to do even though I strongly lean towards shield healing. I just don’t see this sort of thing as an attack on my role. I don’t see how things like nerfs to bloodwhetting or tanks massive damage down is an attack on tanks, nerfing them wouldn’t change my enjoyment of the tanks

Your example of physical ranged barely applies because physical ranged actual problem is the fact they are arbitrarily forced to do less damage than other classes for near no reason almost to the point the 1% isn’t worth it, that isn’t remotely the problem that healers face. Hilariously almost opposite to your point nerfing everyone down to phys ranged damage actually would 100% fix the phys ranged problems because the jobs are designed fine, they just don’t do enough damage