What to manage as a tank?

[Ramiee]

Yes??? Weren't you the one arguing about my experience about tanks in other games?
Are you aware of the most iconic abilities of Paladins in DND, Warcraft or Baldur's gate?

If I say "Lay on hands" the first thing that should spring to your mind is a Paladin.

Honestly final fantasy paladins are so different from generic paladins. When I think of final fantasy paladin I think of swords falling from the sky, same way when I think of paladin in wow I think of hammers.

[CKNovel]

I didn't play WoW but I wonder why people quits that game.. it must be sucks playing as a tank that have nothing to manage other than healing party..

WoW did a comeback since their lowest point during Shadowlands.
Healers in WoW have other things to do than HP management.

Also you should be aware that healers absolutely don't need to stop DPS to heal. Top healers will never GCD heal unless there's no target.
In case you missed it, that's exactly the complains from a major numbers of healers, they don't want to DPS, they want to heal.
The same way, another side of healers are complaining because they press the same GCD and reset the same dot to DPS.

You should be aware of the healer status, it's very disrecpectful to make claims and demand for changes when you play neither of the two roles.
Also I still see no data, only your opinion.

[BabyYoda]

WoW did a comeback since their lowest point during Shadowlands.
Healers in WoW have other things to do than HP management.

Also you should be aware that healers absolutely don't need to stop DPS to heal. Top healers will never GCD heal unless there's no target.
In case you missed it, that's exactly the complains from a major numbers of healers, they don't want to DPS, they want to heal.
The same way, another side of healers are complaining because they press the same GCD and reset the same dot to DPS.

You should be aware of the healer status, it's very disrecpectful to make claims and demand for changes when you play neither of the two roles.
Also I still see no data, only your opinion.

it is still lazy design choice.. just stop giving tanks 2 roles responsibility so they can have something to manage..

it is ok if you don't agree with me but I can say what I want and my opinion of tanks have nothing to manage is still true 100%.

usually tanks do CC.. rage management.. aggro management.. mitigation management

having non of that is how this role has been seen as second citizen healers.

I played tanks in ShB as my main and I know how this become role OP I switch to DPS after EW because how much braindead it become.

I don't have to provide you my credentials to view my point.. it is clear that second citizen healer role is the most dumb down jobs in the game.

"don't need to stop DPS to heal" is another argument can be dumb down easily.. you did gather your data based on 1 to 3% of people in the role.. so lame even to consider them as source for the rest of the playerbase.

design a game around high end players is what makes 2min meta a thing.. each expansion another dumb down version of the job.

even though their design on healers have been stopping DPS to do heals.. like lily system.. you must cast GCD heals to do damage.. but you didn't read data correctly.

in the end we request to Tank role to not be second citizen healers.. we ask them to be tanks.. mitigation management.. CC.. rage management.

[Supersnow845]

Before answering that question, it's necessary to prove that it is a fact and not just your perspective.
And the fact are Healers aren't a burden or an induced necessity. They bring a lot of value to any group. They're just boring to play and not the navel of the party anymore.

Physical ranged are an induced necessity, if there wasn't a 1% role bonus, most player would pick another melee or caster, especially with the addition of pictomancer.
So to answer your answer, yes I wouldn't enjoy an induced necessity, I moved away from physical range because of that. But it's not what's happening with healers.




You can pull data and prove this is false but amuse us:
Prove with data that "tank heals are much more optimal than how healers do".

And if you want to take something closer to XIV, just take a look at WoW. I can safely tell you Tank healing is waaaay more crazy than what what we have in XIV.
Tanks that heals are nothing new.

So we agree being an induced necessity in high end content doesn’t feel good but disagree whether healers qualify. What about casual content, it’s a lot harder to argue healers aren’t an enforced burden in casual content given the state of the tanks healing power. And I think this is an area where feelings can play into this a lot. I may not be good enough to do TOP with no healers but it doesn’t make me feel good about the state of my role, whereas this never happens with tanks or DPS so they never get the same negative feeling. Constantly being hammered by showing off the limited use of your role doesn’t feel good even if it’s a statistical minority

It’s hard to compare to WOW because while tank healing is way stronger the boss wallops you far far harder, doubling the tank healing but then having the boss hit you 4 times as hard is the equivalent of a 50% nerf to tank healing in 14. 14’s tank healing is unique is that it can outheal the damage output, it’s not triage, it’s just straight up effective healing

[CKNovel]

"don't need to stop DPS to heal" is another argument can be dumb down easily.. you did gather your data based on 1 to 3% of people in the role.. so lame even to consider them as source for the rest of the playerbase.

even though their design on healers have been stopping DPS to do heals.. like lily system.. you must cast GCD heals to do damage.. but you didn't read data correctly.

The data I used is based on all logged clear. That's insanely far from "1-3%".

As for the Lilies, I encourage you to read the WHM kit again. They're never a DPS loss at the minimum they're neutral, if anything they're far more often a DPS gain.

So we agree being an induced necessity in high end content doesn’t feel good but disagree whether healers qualify. What about casual content, it’s a lot harder to argue healers aren’t an enforced burden in casual content given the state of the tanks healing power. And I think this is an area where feelings can play into this a lot.

I'm convinced you're just bored as a healer and trying to find the culprit of your frustration. The intention is commendable, but the execution isn't great.
As I've said before, nerfing others roles won't make yours any funnier. That's the crab mentality, feeling that at least you're not alone in the bucket.
Take a look at the physical range who would be replaced if it wasn't for the role buff. Nerfing all other DPS down to their level won't solve the problem, just put it under the carpet to justify the injustice.

As for WoW, there's literally memes about how it's straight up to run some solo endgame content as a tank due to how their survivability is insanely high and scales on the player number.
You'd be surprised by the tank survivability. Imagine if TBN had 1 second cooldown and DRK would consistently be at the risk of overcapping MP?
It's just that healers have other responsibilities than tank HP.

[Supersnow845]

The data I used is based on all logged clear. That's insanely far from "1-3%".

As for the Lilies, I encourage you to read the WHM kit again. They're never a DPS loss at the minimum they're neutral, if anything they're far more often a DPS gain.




I'm convinced you're just bored as a healer and trying to find the culprit of your frustration. The intention is commendable, but the execution isn't great.
As I've said before, nerfing others roles won't make yours any funnier. That's the crab mentality, feeling that at least you're not alone in the bucket.
Take a look at the physical range who would be replaced if it wasn't for the role buff. Nerfing all other DPS down to their level won't solve the problem, just put it under the carpet to justify the injustice.

As for WoW, there's literally memes about how it's straight up to run some solo endgame content as a tank due to how their survivability is insanely high and scales on the player number.
You'd be surprised by the tank survivability. Imagine if TBN had 1 second cooldown and DRK would consistently be at the risk of overcapping MP?
It's just that healers have other responsibilities than tank HP.

Why wouldn’t I be bored at healing, healing isn’t fun. This isn’t crab mentality, I don’t want to nerf everyone else so they can feel as bad as me I want targeted nerfs to problematic classes that directly contribute to why me playing a healer isn’t fun. You go the other way you refuse to consider nerfs to your own classes but won’t admit when your classes being problematic directly impacts other classes. My role straight up isn’t fun in casual content because the tank does my job for me, sure my damage is still boring but the core of my role is healing, and you are doing that for me, of course I see that as a problem, I don’t understand how you can be so blinded by your protection of your own role that you don’t see this. I’ve straight up called for nerfs for my own main (PCT), I know when classes need to change, I don’t see people pointing out flaws in my favourite jobs because it impacts them as targeting my fun. I sympathise with regen healers who feel like they are being shut out by how much shield healers dominate in healing design, I support something like non mitigation bleeds that shield healers suck at healing to give regen healers more to do even though I strongly lean towards shield healing. I just don’t see this sort of thing as an attack on my role. I don’t see how things like nerfs to bloodwhetting or tanks massive damage down is an attack on tanks, nerfing them wouldn’t change my enjoyment of the tanks

Your example of physical ranged barely applies because physical ranged actual problem is the fact they are arbitrarily forced to do less damage than other classes for near no reason almost to the point the 1% isn’t worth it, that isn’t remotely the problem that healers face. Hilariously almost opposite to your point nerfing everyone down to phys ranged damage actually would 100% fix the phys ranged problems because the jobs are designed fine, they just don’t do enough damage

[BabyYoda]

So we agree being an induced necessity in high end content doesn’t feel good but disagree whether healers qualify. What about casual content, it’s a lot harder to argue healers aren’t an enforced burden in casual content given the state of the tanks healing power. And I think this is an area where feelings can play into this a lot. I may not be good enough to do TOP with no healers but it doesn’t make me feel good about the state of my role, whereas this never happens with tanks or DPS so they never get the same negative feeling. Constantly being hammered by showing off the limited use of your role doesn’t feel good even if it’s a statistical minority

It’s hard to compare to WOW because while tank healing is way stronger the boss wallops you far far harder, doubling the tank healing but then having the boss hit you 4 times as hard is the equivalent of a 50% nerf to tank healing in 14. 14’s tank healing is unique is that it can outheal the damage output, it’s not triage, it’s just straight up effective healing

Tanks is just too good of a role right now.. I have never seen this kind of self suffiency role in FFXIV before

I would love to keep tank design to stormblood or at least ShB.. they have much things to manage in Stormblood while giving other roles a chance to do their job

[CKNovel]

Why wouldn’t I be bored at healing, healing isn’t fun. This isn’t crab mentality, I don’t want to nerf everyone else so they can feel as bad as me I want targeted nerfs to problematic classes that directly contribute to why me playing a healer isn’t fun. You go the other way you refuse to consider nerfs to your own classes but won’t admit when your classes being problematic directly impacts other classes.

The physical ranged exactly applies to this situation.
Let me remind you that you are the one who claimed healers are a "induced necessity" and I used p.ranged as an example to what true induced necessity is with the role buff.

You go back to your initial stance very fast,
I can only invite you to read back my arguments as to why we have multiple paths to make healers more engaging and why choosing the nerf route is the worst scenario. You can absolutely nerf Bloodwhetting but it won't make healers fun.
It will remain the same 11111111111 while waiting for damage to happen. That's my point from the start, I don't want that and neither do you.
I want healers to be fun instead of everyone feeling as miserable as healers.

I know you're frustrated about your role being an ungrateful one to play but looking at someone else being the culprit will only lead to witch hunts and more injustice.

Bloodwhetting or tank sustain isn't the culprit
Just please take a look at the data, there's many groups who clear Dungeons in a DRK + 3 DPS comp.
Dark Knight the tank with the least sustain can support those party composition. That alone proves Bloodwhetting or tank sustain are not the culprit.

That means even if you nerf Warrior with an axe you're still at the same point while nerfing the harmless fun of WAR mains. That's what I've been trying to explain to you.
Dark Knight can do it. That fact alone is a contradiction to your belief.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You have a really interesting habit of dismissing certain things when other people use them in their argument but then turn around and use them in your argument when it’s convenient for you. For example you dismiss out of hand healerless clears as a problem across any level of content even though they are on the rarer side yet you’ll turn around and argue that BW is not a problem because very rarely people will also run DRK with 3 DPS and not WAR/PLD. Isn’t your entire point around why my annoyance at hearlerless clears is mostly irrelevant centred on the fact that just because x is done by a minority doesn’t mean that can extrapolate a problem to y, because under that logic using the rare DRK+3D isn’t a counter to how problematic the other 3 are. But let’s even account for that, you are using an example of not even using a healer AND GOING FASTER BECAUSE OF IT, as an example of healers not being broken, can you not see the flaw here. I know you are phrasing this as “the problem isn’t tanks the problem is content doesn’t do enough damage” which i don’t disagree with but increasing damage is the same as a stealth nerf to sustain so there is zero reason to support one and not the other

You also tend to distill others stances to one very limited point and argue as if that’s the totality of the others stance. I don’t want to nerf the other classes into healers being good I want targeted nerfs on problematic classes while also making healers more fun design wise, you always stop at the first half and act like I’m just vindictive. The reason I hold both halves of that stance is no matter how interesting you make my damage if the sustain problem doesn’t get fixed I’m still just playing a slightly gimped caster while my role name is being done by the blue role. There is ways to make healers more fun damage wise without affecting tanks, there is almost no way to make healing more fun without targeted nerfs to tank sustain because that’s where the overwhelming amount of non healer healing comes from (and that’s either nerf sustain or buff damage as they both nerf tanks)

As for phys ranged u said the problem with your comment was “nerfing the other roles down to phys ranged won’t fix their problem” when that is literally exactly how to fix their problem, people feel like an induced necessity there because they are forced to do less damage to bring the 1%. They don’t dislike how the phys ranged are actually designed. Nerfing the other roles so they weren’t so far behind would actually 100% fix their problem

[CKNovel]

Ironic, you're interpreting my words in ways that are convenient to you.

No, unlike you I'm not using a single group that did an exceptional challenge but random players who did a dungeon run with 1 DRK and 3 DPS.
I'm showing that DRK can do the Tank + 3 DPS setup to show you that even if you nerfed Bloodwhetting, you would still have nothing to heal.
The point is to demonstrate that there's little damages going on, using DRK as the lowest point of reference to picture what a BW nerf would look like.

Read again:

[...]
Dark Knight the tank with the least sustain can support those party composition. That alone proves Bloodwhetting or tank sustain are not the culprit.

That means even if you nerf Warrior with an axe you're still at the same point [...]

From the start, you can’t see the forest for the trees.