P4S cleared without healers

[Magikazam]

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

Pretty sure it also been cleared with no clemency from pals, no healer and no tank LB. Pretty sure only reason they bring 3 Paladin is to cheese some part with cover since they lack the LB.

[Carighan]

This again begs the question, why is damage so low in FFXIV raids and parties.

The healing tanks do is not high comparing something like Blood DK in WoW or so. But everything deals so utterly little damage. And if it does, it's 90%-100% hits, but only every 20-30 seconds. Contrasted with other MMOs, which would do something like:

- Autoattacks for 25%+ of a tank's HP after passive mitigation.
- Each autoattack has a chance to do a 360° cleave, causing damage to all melee players for 25%-50% of their HP.
- Each autoattack fires a few random shots into the party, dealing 25%+ damage to people hit. Utterly random, you can be the target of multiple such attacks.
- Alternatively, there's a quite significant constantly ticking damage on the raid. Not Valigarmanda level, far far more.
- Raid damage hits are reduced to 30%-50% on everyone, since anyone might be low at the time it happens.

The idea here is that yes, Paladins can heal that. But they're OOM after a few casts of single target healing. Warriors can heal that. Every 25 seconds. Only actual healers have proper no-CD GCD heals, and you'll be spamming those like crazy to keep up with this, healing individual people from the random individual hits and in-between using instant oGCDs to top up people before frequent weaker raid hits.

It doesn't have to be that crazy of course, but we really need significantly random individual target-damage in raids. This is something the tanks would not be able to cover. This would require a healer's GCD single target heals if it happens frequently enough, say on every auto-attack.

[Carighan]

@7:01 - 7:12 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@12:38 - pld 3 clemency on dnc after death

9 total clemency casts. 1 during uptime

Interesting

This is what I mean. M4S just doesn't deal damage to the group essentially. And that is the problem. Even Paladin healing is actually pretty paltry. It would be utterly insufficient if there were actual damage on the group.

Imagine for a moment of M4S had a DoT that dealt a constant 10% of HP (so more on a tank than on anybody else) every 3 seconds. Good luck doing that without double healers, even those re going to have to manage their mana some.

[Magikazam]

This again begs the question, why is damage so low in FFXIV raids and parties.

Imo. 2 reasons. First, Tank just got WAY to much mitigation. Aside from their vast ammount of damage reduction all tank got either a 25 sec strong defensive CD or A strong defensive CD that use their ressources. So tank got tons of hp and just loss less hp overall than a dps would if they were to get hit.

And that the second part. The rest of the party is like, comically weak and made out of paper. And that lead to situation where a dps die in one hit cause he had his left foot inside 2 orange puddle, all while the tank is running around with 5 vulne stack and still can live just fine, provided they use their cd correctly and the healer throw them a small heal between rez.

It just hard to design sustained damage to the party when Tank are self propelled immortal god in term of survivability and the rest of the party can't afford to make 2 mistake in the same minutes, even in casual content like dungeon.

[Carighan]

It just hard to design sustained damage to the party when Tank are self propelled immortal god in term of survivability and the rest of the party can't afford to make 2 mistake in the same minutes, even in casual content like dungeon.

Eh, I dunno. I don't find it difficult to design at all, in particular because other MMOs did this >20 years ago casually, without much thought.

And to be fair, sure, maybe tanks need to be slightly less durable, but it would still not be difficult to say, design Honey B Lovely like this:

1. Her cloth bands with the stinger ends are now independently moving.
2. Shortly after every auto-attack, they each fire a bolt onto a random different partymember. It cannot be the main emnity target, but it can be the offtank (in which case you get a bit lucky).
3. One stinger deals ~50k-70k in damage.
4. The other deals ~40k in damage.

This would not even be that much, considering how infrequently she AAs. But it would be enough to not be ignored, as people hit by this would be dead come the next raidwide, and during the beats it can drop people dangerously low if they're not topped off. But also, this would just happen too often (in particular during beats again, where she has extended stretches of AAing) to cover with just Essential Dignitiy et al. You'd have to actually heal it as the next raidwide that'd use a group healing oGCD could already be killing somebody if not individually healed before. It also happens often enough so that many (if not most) of your GCDs would be busy with Aspected Benefic, or job equivalents. Maybe even Benefic (GASP!).

Really, there are 3 main mechanics to this. Every single boss should be doing either of these, or a combination of them but then at reduced value:

1. Fire random attacks into the non-tanking party, as above.
2. Deal a portion of their melee damage in 360° around them (enough to threaten melee DPS but not outright kill them, similar to (1) but focused on melee DPS in particular).
3. Have random AoEs or line attacks that have 0 forewarning but again don't deal lethal damage. In this case the amount of players hit is up to chance, too. You can spread out to minimize the chance, but you cannot fully prevent sometimes 2+ people getting hit. This also reduces the doomstacking of parties.

And it's not like these mechanics need variance. Program them once, then apply to bosses with a scaling factor: If two are used, each is 50% as strong. If all three are used, each is 33% as strong. Done.

[Ramiee]

Most of FFXIVs issues is it's a western style MMO going through a JP mindset. 20+ years of experimentation has gone around in western MMOs so now those Devs have a better idea of how to balance roles, WoW for example had very similar healer design to current XIV 15ish years ago however it was unengaging which led to healers quitting so they turned this around to having more damage dealing and now current healing is fun, still has balance issues but there's regular rebalancing.
GW2 also has real fun healers and balancing issues every once a while.

I've played a lot of eastern MMOs and they are not designed with this in mind, everything is role restricted, healers heal, tanks tank and DPS DPS. That is if you even have trinity roles, the JP and Korean game design mindset seems to think that you have to play your role and only your role. I'm pretty sure most JP players wouldn't mind if healers literally weren't allowed to deal damage in raids and only heal. Looking specifically at the FF forums at least, it's sad but early ff14 was not normal design wise for JP MMOs the game just became more and more like all other JP and Korean MMOs.

[Magikazam]

Eh, I dunno. I don't find it difficult to design at all, in particular because other MMOs did this >20 years ago casually, without much thought.

Other MMO are also designed with healer being Healbots and encounter having tons of mechanics going out all at once.

3. One stinger deals ~50k-70k in damage. 4. The other deals ~40k in damage.

In Honey B that enought to randomly kill people during her hearth phase and when she drop honey. She love to AA a lot during those and you would EASILY end up killing DPS while they did nothing wrong. You know during her hearth phase there a Meteor part right. Healer would need to premtively time their healing so they can heal in between the small frames where the meteor damage them and they could receive a stinger. You would then need to full heal said person cause there like 6 other meteor going down and you can't afford to not heal 5 of those, and even too you just healed the first dude, there a non 0 chance he just get targetted by 2 stingers while you deal with other meteor.

[Carighan]

In Honey B that enought to randomly kill people during her hearth phase and when she drop honey. She love to AA a lot during those and you would EASILY end up killing DPS while they did nothing wrong. You know during her hearth phase there a Meteor part right. Healer would need to premtively time their healing so they can heal in between the small frames where the meteor damage them and they could receive a stinger. You would then need to full heal said person cause there like 6 other meteor going down and you can't afford to not heal 5 of those, and even too you just healed the first dude, there a non 0 chance he just get targetted by 2 stingers while you deal with other meteor.

That's the thing, these raidwide effects would no longer hit for 80%+, but for 40%-50%. The idea is to make the infrequent raidwide attacks weaker, but instead add constant low~medium damage pressure onto non-tanks. Forcing in turn a constant healing output stream, which is more than even very heal-heavy DPS or Tanks can provide with their limited toolset.

That's how, well, everyone else gets it done. :P

[Magikazam]

That's the thing, these raidwide effects would no longer hit for 80%+, but for 40%-50%. The idea is to make the infrequent raidwide attacks weaker, but instead add constant low~medium damage pressure onto non-tanks. Forcing in turn a constant healing output stream, which is more than even very heal-heavy DPS or Tanks can provide with their limited toolset.

That's how, well, everyone else gets it done. :P

Except with the exemple I just given and the number you gave me, those effect don't deal 80% of someone hp. In normal Honey B meteor deal like 35k ish damage. Phys dps have around 150k hp with BIS and magical/healer got 120k hp. You're asking for random occurence of 70k damage, that hit more than the actual mechanic, and that even whitout considering minim Ilevel or vulne stacks.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

Tanks get full dps rotations, tanks get much closer to dps damage, tanks get healer healing, tanks can wear armor or dresses. Healers are not optimal in dungeons, healers are not optimal in some ex's and not necessary in others, healers are not necessary in savage. At what point are any of these considered problems? DT has been better on the whole in dungeons, but that's not universal, really only the level 95 feels like I'm needed for the final boss.

I wouldn't say "much closer"