Problem with toxic casual players on this forum

[Merrigan]

Absolutely not.
Raids/EX etc can be made harder on endgame. That I will agree with.
The main story should never reach a difficulty level that requires people to struggle through it.
It's a leveling experience and story telling mode.

Can we define "struggle" ? Because DT content doesn't make you struggle. In fact, those I saw complaining about it clearly had much more serious problems than you imagine (problems understanding how an MMO works, even before struggling with the mechanics: camera direction and others). All the others, except in special cases, potentially found that the content of DT was more complex but absolutely not infeasible.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

[NekoNova]

Can we define "struggle" ? Because DT content doesn't make you struggle. In fact, those I saw complaining about it clearly had much more serious problems than you imagine (problems understanding how an MMO works, even before struggling with the mechanics: camera direction and others). All the others, except in special cases, potentially found that the content of DT was more complex but absolutely not infeasible.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

Let me try to rephrase it...

There's 2 paths we need to consider:

* The solo-encounters people need to clear during the story
* The grouped instances people need to clear during the story.

The first point is roughly covered, since they introduced the story mode, or even the option to skip said encounter when a player cannot beat the encounter.
The reasons behind this I will leave aside, as we'd delve into player skills, disabilities and what not as to why this option exists.

The second point is where the rub lies.
While I enjoy a challenge myself in the game, it would be unfair for people to be stuck on completing the story because there's a grouped instance they cannot get passed.
I'm aware that we have various options here such as party, followers and what not.
So I'd entertain the idea of keeping the simplest difficulty on the followers instance, and add some complexity when doing the dungeon with a full part of players.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

Absolutely!
There is nothing wrong with a group wiping in a dungeon/raid/encounter.
As long as they are wiping because of something they did wrong, can identify what they did wrong and improve, then by all means, YES!
The mistakes should be obvious and clear on what to improve on.

Wiping 2-3 times and then clearing the encounter a group : Perfectly fine!
Mindlessly running into a wall without a clear way on how to get past it : Something is wrong

[AvoSturmfaust]

I understand some points in this Thread and im the same Opionion, Right from the Start i am raider and i love to see the Difficulity Spike compared with EW, and it could be even harder in my Opinion but MSQ Dungeons should be piss easy without question, you have so many People here in this Game with a Disablility or anything which struggle to clear the MSQ Dungeons and that shouldnt happen, and if you honest so its fine to have them easy as fuck, but Expert/Raids/Allianzraids/ExTrials/Savage that is stuff which should be even harder so People who enjoy "Challenges" can have the Challenge while People which enjoy the MSQ can straight up have the MSQ.

[Merrigan]

While I enjoy a challenge myself in the game, it would be unfair for people to be stuck on completing the story because there's a grouped instance they cannot get passed.

Thanks for the clarification. The idea of setting up a system where the dungeon would be easy with NPCs, and ‘normal’ (i.e. similar to what we have now) with players isn't a bad one. Because at the moment we get the impression that a lot of players are misled by this system: they assume that using NPCs is the easy mode, when in fact it's the mode where you can really get stuck IMO, because it's also the mode where you reset as soon as you die. It's also possible to imagine a buff system for these instances.

On the other hand, I'm still quite firmly opposed to simplifying instances as they're currently designed for multiplayer content (= full party of real players). Because it seems to me that we're already at a fairly low level in terms of difficulty (DT's dungeons manage to be interesting without becoming too complex, which is very well thought out), and to lower it any further would simply mean removing any interaction with the game. Interaction in terms of gameplay is also based, inevitably, on success, which is conditional on your performance.

And then... I don't want to be unpleasant, but sometimes there really are problems ‘between the chair and the screen’. I recently came across someone who, for example, was complaining about the boss where you have stars throwing aoe in a line as they move. The player said that there was no way of determining where these AOEs fell. Can you see the problem? It's a technique that's frequently used in the game, the difference here perhaps being the movement. How do you simplify instances when people claim there's no way to improve them, when we're talking about mechanics that date back several expansions? There comes a point when there's little else to say other than ‘get better’, but not in the toxic sense of the word. Just that, in this case, it's the mechanics of the game that aren't understood, and there's little you can do but go over them, one by one (there are guides to the mechanics frequently used in FFXIV).

[AddictedToWitches]

If hardcore players actually drove the changes, then there is no way that the Job Design choice of catering to absolute bottom feeders would exist. Last I checked, a "hardcore" player can handle something as stupidly simple as positionals, and yet SE has to address the people complaining about them being "too hard" on Viper. Get out of here with that "hardcores are ruining the game" crap. It isn't, and hasn't ever been true.

I think positionals are cringe tbh and they should go the way of TP and enmity generation for DPS
Also last I checked hardcore players are the reason job design is based around the 2 minute window, is the reason many jobs get reworked, is the reason ultimates exist in the first place (content only 1% of the playerbase will even properly experience)
Yes, hardcore players are ruining the game.
I was there when hardcore players ruined everquest back in the day, I was there when hardcore raiders led to the downfall of raid design in WoW.
There is no satisfying the hardcore crowd. They will poopsock all the content and complain the game is too easy, and will complain when aspects of the game are not dedicated strictly to them.
I have hopes for Savage to be enjoyable in DT, but I had those same hopes in ShB. . . and EW. . .
The difficult content is not fun anymore outside of extreme trials, and you have the hardcore crowd to thank for that.
At the very least, the devs have still been designing content to be cleared without the need for third party tools, unlike certain other MMOs like WoW.

[Dogempire]

I think positionals are cringe tbh and they should go the way of TP and enmity generation for DPS
Also last I checked hardcore players are the reason job design is based around the 2 minute window, is the reason many jobs get reworked, is the reason ultimates exist in the first place (content only 1% of the playerbase will even properly experience)
Yes, hardcore players are ruining the game.
I was there when hardcore players ruined everquest back in the day, I was there when hardcore raiders led to the downfall of raid design in WoW.
There is no satisfying the hardcore crowd. They will poopsock all the content and complain the game is too easy, and will complain when aspects of the game are not dedicated strictly to them.
I have hopes for Savage to be enjoyable in DT, but I had those same hopes in ShB. . . and EW. . .
The difficult content is not fun anymore outside of extreme trials, and you have the hardcore crowd to thank for that.
At the very least, the devs have still been designing content to be cleared without the need for third party tools, unlike certain other MMOs like WoW.

While I don't normally advocate for the dumbing down of jobs, I do kind of agree that positionals are problematic, especially with the fact that bosses nowadays tend to teleport to the edge of the arena with their back to the wall where you can't hit your positionals.

Don't get me wrong, I like positionals, I just think that current boss design makes them a massive pain because the boss just won't stand still and feels the urge to teleport around and spin and shove its rear hitbox into the instakill wall so you're forced to use the True North that you only get 1 charge of every (50?) seconds, or it teleports to the edge of the arena and back to the middle then has to turn yet again to smack the tank who may or may not turn the boss again depending on where the party is positioned.

Having only a couple and not punishing you too much for missing them is kind of a blessing in that regard

[Lak14]

I think positionals are cringe tbh and they should go the way of TP and enmity generation for DPS
Also last I checked hardcore players are the reason job design is based around the 2 minute window, is the reason many jobs get reworked, is the reason ultimates exist in the first place (content only 1% of the playerbase will even properly experience)
Yes, hardcore players are ruining the game.
I was there when hardcore players ruined everquest back in the day, I was there when hardcore raiders led to the downfall of raid design in WoW.
There is no satisfying the hardcore crowd. They will poopsock all the content and complain the game is too easy, and will complain when aspects of the game are not dedicated strictly to them.
I have hopes for Savage to be enjoyable in DT, but I had those same hopes in ShB. . . and EW. . .
The difficult content is not fun anymore outside of extreme trials, and you have the hardcore crowd to thank for that.
At the very least, the devs have still been designing content to be cleared without the need for third party tools, unlike certain other MMOs like WoW.

more like no one can carry my ass in savage.

[NekoNova]

Thanks for the clarification. The idea of setting up a system where the dungeon would be easy with NPCs, and ‘normal’ (i.e. similar to what we have now) with players isn't a bad one. Because at the moment we get the impression that a lot of players are misled by this system: they assume that using NPCs is the easy mode, when in fact it's the mode where you can really get stuck IMO, because it's also the mode where you reset as soon as you die. It's also possible to imagine a buff system for these instances.

On the other hand, I'm still quite firmly opposed to simplifying instances as they're currently designed for multiplayer content (= full party of real players). Because it seems to me that we're already at a fairly low level in terms of difficulty (DT's dungeons manage to be interesting without becoming too complex, which is very well thought out), and to lower it any further would simply mean removing any interaction with the game. Interaction in terms of gameplay is also based, inevitably, on success, which is conditional on your performance.

And then... I don't want to be unpleasant, but sometimes there really are problems ‘between the chair and the screen’. I recently came across someone who, for example, was complaining about the boss where you have stars throwing aoe in a line as they move. The player said that there was no way of determining where these AOEs fell. Can you see the problem? It's a technique that's frequently used in the game, the difference here perhaps being the movement. How do you simplify instances when people claim there's no way to improve them, when we're talking about mechanics that date back several expansions? There comes a point when there's little else to say other than ‘get better’, but not in the toxic sense of the word. Just that, in this case, it's the mechanics of the game that aren't understood, and there's little you can do but go over them, one by one (there are guides to the mechanics frequently used in FFXIV).

I can agree with this, truth to be told.
Some players are simply bad at these games, there's no point in denying that.
Some players however are unfortunate enough to have disabilities that make them unable to perform good enough to meet for example a DPS requirement.
And it's the second case that I am worried about.

But I also do not have a good solution either for this.
I feel the idea discussed has merit, as it gives people options to continue.
And it gives people also options to take the more challenging path if they choose to do so, without hampering other people that want the easier experience.

I do feel it needs to be said: I have no intention of making EX trials/Raids easier. The only exception here is if they are part of the MSQ and need to be cleared in order to progress. Then it needs to be doable, but if they are not story blockers, they can and should be challenging.

[LilyPendragon]

All I want is main story content to be easy enough to complete. I could care less about raids, high end dungeons, or ex primals because I never run them. That's not toxic to ask for something that simple. This expansion been very hard when have bad hands and wrists that don't move fast enough for the new mechanics they added.

This always seems kinda a cop-out to me. This game is incredibly low APM, even the faster jobs (NIN, VPR, MCH) don't break the 100 APM barrier, with some of the slower ones (e.g BLM) hovering around I believe 30APM. Nothing in this game requires dextrous hands, and if people are struggling to keep up with mechanics, I'd argue it's a pattern recognition or memory issue, not a mechanical one.

[TBerry]

If hardcore players actually drove the changes, then there is no way that the Job Design choice of catering to absolute bottom feeders would exist. Last I checked, a "hardcore" player can handle something as stupidly simple as positionals, and yet SE has to address the people complaining about them being "too hard" on Viper. Get out of here with that "hardcores are ruining the game" crap. It isn't, and hasn't ever been true.

If the "hardcore" crowd ran the game everything would be locked behind the endgame and only a few jobs would be viable.