Problem with toxic casual players on this forum

[AvoSturmfaust]

I understand some points in this Thread and im the same Opionion, Right from the Start i am raider and i love to see the Difficulity Spike compared with EW, and it could be even harder in my Opinion but MSQ Dungeons should be piss easy without question, you have so many People here in this Game with a Disablility or anything which struggle to clear the MSQ Dungeons and that shouldnt happen, and if you honest so its fine to have them easy as fuck, but Expert/Raids/Allianzraids/ExTrials/Savage that is stuff which should be even harder so People who enjoy "Challenges" can have the Challenge while People which enjoy the MSQ can straight up have the MSQ.

[Merrigan]

While I enjoy a challenge myself in the game, it would be unfair for people to be stuck on completing the story because there's a grouped instance they cannot get passed.

Thanks for the clarification. The idea of setting up a system where the dungeon would be easy with NPCs, and ‘normal’ (i.e. similar to what we have now) with players isn't a bad one. Because at the moment we get the impression that a lot of players are misled by this system: they assume that using NPCs is the easy mode, when in fact it's the mode where you can really get stuck IMO, because it's also the mode where you reset as soon as you die. It's also possible to imagine a buff system for these instances.

On the other hand, I'm still quite firmly opposed to simplifying instances as they're currently designed for multiplayer content (= full party of real players). Because it seems to me that we're already at a fairly low level in terms of difficulty (DT's dungeons manage to be interesting without becoming too complex, which is very well thought out), and to lower it any further would simply mean removing any interaction with the game. Interaction in terms of gameplay is also based, inevitably, on success, which is conditional on your performance.

And then... I don't want to be unpleasant, but sometimes there really are problems ‘between the chair and the screen’. I recently came across someone who, for example, was complaining about the boss where you have stars throwing aoe in a line as they move. The player said that there was no way of determining where these AOEs fell. Can you see the problem? It's a technique that's frequently used in the game, the difference here perhaps being the movement. How do you simplify instances when people claim there's no way to improve them, when we're talking about mechanics that date back several expansions? There comes a point when there's little else to say other than ‘get better’, but not in the toxic sense of the word. Just that, in this case, it's the mechanics of the game that aren't understood, and there's little you can do but go over them, one by one (there are guides to the mechanics frequently used in FFXIV).

[NekoNova]

Thanks for the clarification. The idea of setting up a system where the dungeon would be easy with NPCs, and ‘normal’ (i.e. similar to what we have now) with players isn't a bad one. Because at the moment we get the impression that a lot of players are misled by this system: they assume that using NPCs is the easy mode, when in fact it's the mode where you can really get stuck IMO, because it's also the mode where you reset as soon as you die. It's also possible to imagine a buff system for these instances.

On the other hand, I'm still quite firmly opposed to simplifying instances as they're currently designed for multiplayer content (= full party of real players). Because it seems to me that we're already at a fairly low level in terms of difficulty (DT's dungeons manage to be interesting without becoming too complex, which is very well thought out), and to lower it any further would simply mean removing any interaction with the game. Interaction in terms of gameplay is also based, inevitably, on success, which is conditional on your performance.

And then... I don't want to be unpleasant, but sometimes there really are problems ‘between the chair and the screen’. I recently came across someone who, for example, was complaining about the boss where you have stars throwing aoe in a line as they move. The player said that there was no way of determining where these AOEs fell. Can you see the problem? It's a technique that's frequently used in the game, the difference here perhaps being the movement. How do you simplify instances when people claim there's no way to improve them, when we're talking about mechanics that date back several expansions? There comes a point when there's little else to say other than ‘get better’, but not in the toxic sense of the word. Just that, in this case, it's the mechanics of the game that aren't understood, and there's little you can do but go over them, one by one (there are guides to the mechanics frequently used in FFXIV).

I can agree with this, truth to be told.
Some players are simply bad at these games, there's no point in denying that.
Some players however are unfortunate enough to have disabilities that make them unable to perform good enough to meet for example a DPS requirement.
And it's the second case that I am worried about.

But I also do not have a good solution either for this.
I feel the idea discussed has merit, as it gives people options to continue.
And it gives people also options to take the more challenging path if they choose to do so, without hampering other people that want the easier experience.

I do feel it needs to be said: I have no intention of making EX trials/Raids easier. The only exception here is if they are part of the MSQ and need to be cleared in order to progress. Then it needs to be doable, but if they are not story blockers, they can and should be challenging.

[LilyPendragon]

What does this even mean? The only people who care about job viability ARE the hardcore players. Casuals aren't going to bat an eye if jobs are underperforming.

Last expansion proves this. SMN was perfectly mediocre performance wise but was massively popular. Yet MNK and BLM continued to see lower player numbers.

[Seiki_Kisaki]

I feel like since DT released there has been a huge problem on this forum of toxic casual players. The casual playerbase in this game tends to want the whole game catered to them and cause a fuss when they perceive something in the game that isn't. Examples include complaining ultimate content is taking too much dev time and axolotl mount needs savage completion among others.

You don't see much dissenting opinion on here because you get shot down and dog piled by the toxic casual brigade who will not accept that the majority of the playerbase is currently having a blast playing DT. Most of the people I know enjoyed the story and the ones that didn't enjoy it were able to give nuanced reasons why and not just "WUK LAMAT BAD LOL"

Can we just not say everything that is against our own opinion is toxic? I don't see how it's toxic to have an opinion, share that opinion, and back up others who share that opinion. By that logic, you'd be pretty toxic too. I'd like to believe you're not though.

If you liked Dawntrail, that's good for you. Other people do not share that opinion, so they disagree. They're not dogpiling you, your opinion's just not popular here. If you want to talk to other people who share your opinion, just continue talking to the people you know. In terms of anecdotal evidence, isn't it strange that you've accepted your FC's opinion as "majority" whereas the more populated forum where you've admitted that your opinion isn't popular is deemed "minority"? Not calling you out or anything, I'm just sharing my thoughts on your post.

As for "nuanced" reasons, just click on any of the threads you've jokingly reduced to "Wuk Lamat bad lol". Most of them will actually give you very nuanced reasons. For example, in my eyes, the thing that ruined the story is the crazy rushed pacing.

This part of the playerbase doesn't understand that Stormblood was the best expansion content and job balance wise, and the constant complaining at the time that it was bad is what led to the jobs being the way they are now. Stormblood job design was on the whole pretty peak, but the large amount of players complaining about the skill gap meant we have the job gameplay we do now. They complained about fantastic content like eureka and bozja and that's what led to the relics becoming a shop purchase.

I do agree with this part though, I do miss Stormblood's job design. Everything coming after it has been one flavor of disappointing next to another.

[Kacho_Nacho]

*snip* toxic casual players *snip*

I see we have a new buzzword being bantered around.

It shouldn't need to be said but it appears it does anyways. This game has a lot of individuals playing it. Each individual has their own opinion regarding issues regarding this expansion's storyline, voice acting, difficulty, and etc...

Just because some of these opinions differ from yours, doesn't mean they are toxic. Nor does it mean there is a Us vs Them dynamic going on where one side is right and the other side is wrong.

I get that you are passionate about your beliefs. That is a good thing. It means you care about Final Fantasy XIV and its future.

BUT

There is nothing to be gained from telling the developers to disregard all the viewpoints other than your own. Don't be a gatekeeper.

As my signature says...

Wild Star is a perfect example of this. Good MMO, but focused so much on the hardcore, it couldn't keep a healthy playerbase.

Yeah, when I saw the first trailer, I was so excited. Wild Star looked like it would be so much fun.

Then, new information started coming out and it totally turned me off. I knew from the get go it wasn't going to be my cup of tea. It wasn't much of surprise to hear of its quick demise.

What does this even mean? The only people who care about job viability ARE the hardcore players. Casuals aren't going to bat an eye if jobs are underperforming.

I think she means casual players will be driven out by a hardcore community which insisted only the top performing jobs be allowed in non-MSQ content. I'm glad that hasn't happened nor does it appear it will ever happen in this MMO.

As for your observation regarding casual players, you are spot on. A casual player is playing a job because they enjoy its gameplay, its appearance, or they have a concept of a character. Job performance as listed on a website from using a forbidden add-on isn't a consideration.

[Darnuss]

The story IS bad, and they literally butched every single scion so the can simp Poochie, and ask about Poochie when she's not on screen. While Lamat is not the main issue, and still they have problems in the quest part and how questing is done poorly, the dungeons, trials and raids have been great so far. While, i really don't think these new dungeons are "hard" i mean if you don't know how to use your job this far (IE healing/tanking) then is a "you" problem.

[Dovaah]

The story IS bad, and they literally butched every single scion so the can simp Poochie, and ask about Poochie when she's not on screen. While Lamat is not the main issue, and still they have problems in the quest part and how questing is done poorly, the dungeons, trials and raids have been great so far. While, i really don't think these new dungeons are "hard" i mean if you don't know how to use your job this far (IE healing/tanking) then is a "you" problem.

- Speak to Wuk Lamat
- Speak to Wuk Lamat again
- Speak to Wuk Lamat yet again
- Speak to 3 villagers

[fatvalentine]

I don't understand how the complainers were okay with Barbariccia, Golbez and Pandaemonium in EW, or Warrior of Light in ShB, but somehow to them this new content is too much.

[Colt47]

If they make the controls more complicated and go back to heavensward there would be a mass exodus of players from the game. The current content balance has had better player retention then Stormblood, but I do feel like due to how they have to do difficulty in this game people are either having an engaging time the first few times they do something and then it gets boring, or it turns into cram school for hours getting frustrated at that one guy who didn't do a mechanic right because he is still learning something earlier in the fight than the rest of the group. I mean getting into the higher tier content feels like someone is applying for a job and often times that application needs to be made months in advance to even get in.