Problem with toxic casual players on this forum

[Router]

If the "hardcore" crowd ran the game everything would be locked behind the endgame and only a few jobs would be viable.

What does this even mean? The only people who care about job viability ARE the hardcore players. Casuals aren't going to bat an eye if jobs are underperforming.

[Kaurhz]

If the "hardcore" crowd ran the game everything would be locked behind the endgame and only a few jobs would be viable.

If we got down to it... I would argue that few casual and hardcore players are game designers, so with this in mind, I wouldn't really trust either side of the coin to design or even be part responsible for the design or direction of a video game lol.

[yoshinoharu]

If the "hardcore" crowd ran the game everything would be locked behind the endgame and only a few jobs would be viable.

Though there are certainly loud, toxic individuals within the 'hardcore' crowd, I think this is a gross misrepresentation of the endgame community as a whole. Many of us actually want more midcore content and an actual progression of difficulty rather than just everything being hard all the time. All of us want all jobs to be viable all the time and don't enjoy being funneled into the 'meta jobs' for week 1. Ideally the people that you are talking about would like a nice, gradual ramp of difficulty where the game itself actually teaches you to become better and better as you approach endgame, and to be able to do that on a job that you like.

I really legitimately do miss the days when I could whole heartedly tell people of all skill levels 'play what you want, it's ultimately more about what you're comfortable with.' The changes of the game, ironically, have made clear choices on what's better and what's not. (Basically if everything's braindead and all jobs do the same thing, invariably there's going to be one that does it better.)

Though I can understand that you might have had some bad experiences with toxic 'hardcore players,' I ask that you refrain from dumping all of us in with them. They end up playing more in the 'beginner' brackets because we don't want them either >.>

[TBerry]

Though there are certainly loud, toxic individuals within the 'hardcore' crowd, I think this is a gross misrepresentation of the endgame community as a whole. Many of us actually want more midcore content and an actual progression of difficulty rather than just everything being hard all the time. All of us want all jobs to be viable all the time and don't enjoy being funneled into the 'meta jobs' for week 1. Ideally the people that you are talking about would like a nice, gradual ramp of difficulty where the game itself actually teaches you to become better and better as you approach endgame, and to be able to do that on a job that you like.

I really legitimately do miss the days when I could whole heartedly tell people of all skill levels 'play what you want, it's ultimately more about what you're comfortable with.' The changes of the game, ironically, have made clear choices on what's better and what's not. (Basically if everything's braindead and all jobs do the same thing, invariably there's going to be one that does it better.)

Though I can understand that you might have had some bad experiences with toxic 'hardcore players,' I ask that you refrain from dumping all of us in with them. They end up playing more in the 'beginner' brackets because we don't want them either >.>

My first "MMO" was a PvP one. I think that should say enough. I, like many others, were lured there by the concept.
Trust me, any alleged "gaslighting" here is child's play.

[Dovaah]

"The game needs to be harder!" they scream as they cannot even raid without 10 different add-ons and vet people based on parsing logs in a third party program

The game needs to be harder though. I don't even do savages nor ex versions (I just wait to unsync them) and the MSQ content has been a snooze fest for a while. If you can just press a button to reach the next cutscene, you might as well just watch someone play through it and spare yourself the cash spending.

You can't expect an MMO to release 6 expansions and get the same mechanics in every single encounter. MSQ is the main appeal to the game yes but it's a game and gameplay comes with it. They have no choice but to change things around if they want to attract new blood.

Like it or not but new players are what keeps these games around for a long time.

And tbh, the combat has kept this expansion from being a total disaster with just how mid the story has been in DT.

[NekoNova]

The game needs to be harder though. I don't even do savages nor ex versions (I just wait to unsync them) and the MSQ content has been a snooze fest for a while. If you can just press a button to reach the next cutscene, you might as well just watch someone play through it and spare yourself the cash spending.

You can't expect an MMO to release 6 expansions and get the same mechanics in every single encounter. MSQ is the main appeal to the game yes but it's a game and gameplay comes with it. They have no choice but to change things around if they want to attract new blood.

Like it or not but new players are what keeps these games around for a long time.

And tbh, the combat has kept this expansion from being a total disaster with just how mid the story has been in DT.

Absolutely not.
Raids/EX etc can be made harder on endgame. That I will agree with.
The main story should never reach a difficulty level that requires people to struggle through it.
It's a leveling experience and story telling mode.

[Merrigan]

Absolutely not.
Raids/EX etc can be made harder on endgame. That I will agree with.
The main story should never reach a difficulty level that requires people to struggle through it.
It's a leveling experience and story telling mode.

Can we define "struggle" ? Because DT content doesn't make you struggle. In fact, those I saw complaining about it clearly had much more serious problems than you imagine (problems understanding how an MMO works, even before struggling with the mechanics: camera direction and others). All the others, except in special cases, potentially found that the content of DT was more complex but absolutely not infeasible.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

[NekoNova]

Can we define "struggle" ? Because DT content doesn't make you struggle. In fact, those I saw complaining about it clearly had much more serious problems than you imagine (problems understanding how an MMO works, even before struggling with the mechanics: camera direction and others). All the others, except in special cases, potentially found that the content of DT was more complex but absolutely not infeasible.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

Let me try to rephrase it...

There's 2 paths we need to consider:

* The solo-encounters people need to clear during the story
* The grouped instances people need to clear during the story.

The first point is roughly covered, since they introduced the story mode, or even the option to skip said encounter when a player cannot beat the encounter.
The reasons behind this I will leave aside, as we'd delve into player skills, disabilities and what not as to why this option exists.

The second point is where the rub lies.
While I enjoy a challenge myself in the game, it would be unfair for people to be stuck on completing the story because there's a grouped instance they cannot get passed.
I'm aware that we have various options here such as party, followers and what not.
So I'd entertain the idea of keeping the simplest difficulty on the followers instance, and add some complexity when doing the dungeon with a full part of players.

Hence my question: when can we use this word “struggle”? When players can still wipe ?

Absolutely!
There is nothing wrong with a group wiping in a dungeon/raid/encounter.
As long as they are wiping because of something they did wrong, can identify what they did wrong and improve, then by all means, YES!
The mistakes should be obvious and clear on what to improve on.

Wiping 2-3 times and then clearing the encounter a group : Perfectly fine!
Mindlessly running into a wall without a clear way on how to get past it : Something is wrong

[FudoMyoo]

Everyone is beating on the dead (wrong?) horse?

End game is collecting mounts/minions, housing, glam & editing in game portraits!!!

[Tabmow]

Nice gaslighting OP. so anyone who has a complaint about this sub par xpac is now a "toxic casual"? riiiiight