Bring Back Kaiten

[Rozeee]

While it is true you can't make something foolproof because there is always a bigger fool out there. What makes you think it's only casuals who didn't care for Kaiten and fedback their distaste for it over the years to SE? They take in multiple channels of feedback (mostly from JP).

I don't have a horse in this race as I don't play SAM, but at least within the forums JP also wants kaiten back. Quite vocally too compared to their usual feedback.

[Pavise]

I don't disagree there's a vocal minority at all asking for it back, but people need to realise that the game forums are not a proper representation of the whole player base as it is only a minute fraction of the playerbase that even uses it.

Feedback is collected from many sources before it is actioned.

[ThorneDynasty]

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

[HikariKurosawa]

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

So what you're saying is kaiten wasn't fine as is and needed other abilities to be tuned around it to make it acceptable?

Let it go lol the ability was cringe and it's good it is gone.

[RyuuZero]

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

yupp, the lack of a 20 Kenki Spender stings and also changing Kaiten to do Direct Hit wouldn't have been a problem for many.. unless SE themselves admit that Direct Hit is Trash, what I doubt though.

[Post]

Does the silent majority really care if they add or remove Kaiten or will they just keep playing the game for whatever reason that they were already playing it before? Will Kaiten being live or dead stop them from grinding CT or fishing or outfits or MGP or fall guys?

Why not listen to the minority that does care, clearly pretty passionately? Sounds like they're the main ones affected by it to me.

[Arkdra]

Does the silent majority really care if they add or remove Kaiten or will they just keep playing the game for whatever reason that they were already playing it before? Will Kaiten being live or dead stop them from grinding CT or fishing or outfits or MGP or fall guys?

Why not listen to the minority that does care, clearly pretty passionately? Sounds like they're the main ones affected by it to me.

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

[Kissune]

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

Why do jobs need to be changed around people being unable to read tooltips or learn their class? Bc no matter how much you trim away for the sake of 'ease of access' you're always going to have a bunch of people who just press whatever buttons they like in whatever order they like, and get through every piece of sub extreme content just fine bc that's how the game is designed.

If you design classes around people who don't want to or care to play the classes the way there were designed, you are eventually going to end up asking yourself why you're bothering to design them in the first place. The fact that I still see people screwing up classes like summoner to this day just tells me that theres no sense in endlessly simplifying jobs bc they will never, ever be simple enough for the apparent target audience.

[Silhart]

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

I can fully believe that there were people who did not understand how Kaiten worked, but I don't see why this justifies its removal. The devs could have just as easily reworded its tooltip to say that it 'increases the potency of your next Iaijutsu by 50%' to make its function more clear. Why does 'throw it out' have to be the solution to everything in this game that isn't 100% perfect?

And I'm gonna be real, I'm struggling to accept that Kaiten was the main reason those SAMs were bad. Think about the main reason why any player in this game underperforms: it's because they can't keep their GCD rolling. Removing Kaiten was never going to help with this. Unless you're prepared to argue that Kaiten was somehow preventing these people from keeping their GCD rolling.

If you design classes around people who don't want to or care to play the classes the way there were designed, you are eventually going to end up asking yourself why you're bothering to design them in the first place. The fact that I still see people screwing up classes like summoner to this day just tells me that theres no sense in endlessly simplifying jobs bc they will never, ever be simple enough for the apparent target audience.

I got curious and took a peek at FFLogs, and I was absolutely floored by what I found:

Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play, Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage. Like, that lower bound is absolutely appalling. It's Summoner. How are people messing up this badly?

[Sylvain]

Personally my biggest issue with Kaiten removal is that only Shinten is left as a Kenki spender.
I didn't mind Kaiten removal in itself, but being left with Shinten spam was an issue to me because Kaiten was the more interesting of the two.
Shinten spam requires little thought whereas Kaiten spam (if Shinten would have been removed instead) would have been more interesting as you'd have had a priority of boostable skill.
It could have also been possible to tie it to new trait.
Like, if you Kaiten each 3 of the sticker generator you'd get a super midare.(random idea).
But there's nothing to do with Shinten.

The same goes for WAR (with upheavel rage cost removal), DRK, DNC and even SCH when it comes to ressource management.
If a ressource is solely only used for a single skill that has no specific interaction with the kit, then it falls flat and becomes uninteresting.

There need to be friction with the ressource use. there need to be a reason for you to hold on it or not (beside having a full bar every 2mins), so basically, a need for ressource management.

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

That's a very fair and valid point and most likely the reason for its removal.
But then, why not simply make it simplier in understanding?
Why not simply make that Kaiten makes your next skill a crit+dh and double DoT duration.
This way there's no way a bad player doesn't understand. Crit > no crit, DH > no direct hit, 60s DoT > 30s DoT.

In term of gameplay, you still keep it and you make it really clear onto why it should be used on your biggest skills.

Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play, Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage. Like, that lower bound is absolutely appalling. It's Summoner. How are people messing up this badly?

Oh lord... I can understand BLM because it's rather easy to mess up your rotation and loose enochian when you start. But SMN... like you litterally have to only think of "where do I put ifrit" every minute. And even if you miss that, loosing 2 ifrit gcd wouldn't make you do that low of a DPS. Just how...