Bring Back Kaiten

[Carighan]

Oh, I see where the disconnect comes from.

I see them all as adding ~0 depth, simply because all of the examples you give merely ask for a certain amount of digital dexterity (as in, your fingers) while going through a pre-solved rotation that is optimized for you. All actual modifications to this happen only as a result of either a) the fight forcing more than a workaround, some deeper break like delaying a whole burst window and this messing with certain jobs that rely on gauges or cycles or b) messing up, drifting, and then depending on the job being more or less able to rectify this.
Which are both, importantly, external to the actual job design. They're not part of the job itself, they only interact with the portion of the kit "vulnerable to" drifting or delaying.

Now don't get me wrong, static rotation type classes can be really well-designed. They just always tend to be shallow in their gameplay, as nowadays we can simply look up the optimal rotation and then it's all just about honing said dexterity to never fumble your buttons. At which point the entire gameplay is a physical exercise, with its difficulty scaled on how often you have to press buttons (so lots of oGCD weaving = more difficult).

A form of difficulty for sure, but sadly not at all the type I personally enjoy. :'(

[Shurrikhan]

I see them all as adding ~0 depth, simply because all of the examples you give merely ask for a certain amount of digital dexterity (as in, your fingers)

Name any rotation in any game and chances are that all depth amounts simply to, again, digital dexterity and quickness to respond to visual cues.

Every risk/compromise has breakpoints before which A is better and after which B is better. Every RNG output still has an optimal action (not necessarily the roll that one, but always the roll that has the greater effective probability of winning, the 1-99 in a 99% chance, rather than the 100 that may have ended up the output despite all odds). One can be forced to memorize a greater number of situations, but there is still ultimately a best output for each.

At best, such therefore shifts which is easier between complete memorization and memorization of guidelines/breakpoints/rough_estimates only.

They just always tend to be shallow in their gameplay, as nowadays we can simply look up the optimal rotation and then it's all just about honing said dexterity to never fumble your buttons.

I'd agree, but at the same total complexity against a striking dummy, etc., the same could be said of a kit firmly in the cult of RNGesus. So long as there are no varied encounter opportunities from which to revalue skills, a chance-based job will nonetheless follow a strict APL (action priority list).

Yes, a RNG-varied kit provides a greater number of exact situations (even if they might easily be boiled down by math into a much smaller number) per action than a chance-less kit, but both require shifting parameters (effective mob count, TTK, positional access, etc.) to see variance between combating a striking dummy and doing a given encounter.

All actual modifications to this happen only as a result of either a) the fight forcing more than a workaround, some deeper break like delaying a whole burst window and this messing with certain jobs that rely on gauges or cycles or b) messing up, drifting, and then depending on the job being more or less able to rectify this.
Which are both, importantly, external to the actual job design. They're not part of the job itself, they only interact with the portion of the kit "vulnerable to" drifting or delaying.

Yet those are no less, fundamentally, than the impacts incurred within nonstatic rotations.

A form of difficulty for sure, but sadly not at all the type I personally enjoy. :'(

Same. I prefer having to do quick maths than to just have quick hands. (A bit of chance tends to help with that, aye, and varied situations in each encounter even more so.) And for that reason, losing Kaiten wasn't all that impactful to me, personally.

My point is, though, that Kaiten did maintain most of the qualities generally associated with "decent" or even "good" skill designs: It vitally enhanced surrounding systems (for which it was neither unique nor quite sufficient but still necessary), added stress to surrounding weaves enough to increase threat of drift, etc. and thereby incentivize a bit more forethought and raise cognitive load in a manageable but subtly noticeable way that lent SAM a bit more its persistent but readied vibe, held iconic flair and flavor, and doubled down on what to many felt best about Samurai.

For that reason, it was certainly a loss by nearly all criteria firmly and broadly held in consensus (i.e., as close as we can get to "objective" in an experience), including those usually held by players defending its removal.

[ElysiumDragon]

What if Kaiten just became Samurai's version of Reassemble or Life Surge?

The skill itself leant into the job's overall fantasy, and even came with a measure of skill expression, but Samurai as a job always felt like there were too many buttons for what the job ultimately wanted to do. I don't think the issue was ever Kaiten itself, but the superfluous additional buttons.

[RyuuZero]

What if Kaiten just became Samurai's version of Reassemble or Life Surge?

That's what Kaiten was ^^ just that it costs 20 Kenki and being the First Skill to spend Kenki on.
Kaiten was the Skill that introduced Samurai to the Kenki Resource, basicly:
"You know your lvl50 Rotation, here have something cool to boost your stuff even stronger!"
now with Shinten.. uhh an Attack for 25 Kenki.. accelerating.. not really though..
and come on, easy would it have been for the Devs to cut Kaiten's 50% Boost and make it give Direct Hit Instead!? Yeah DPS ppls may've cried for a week but the Gameplay would still be there especially at lvl100!!
I mean.. think about that, what if Kaiten got a buff at lvl100 to not only give Direct Hit but also Tendo:
Tendo for 20 Kenki I would love that!

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like that'd offer far less to gameplay than it did before, all while still costing the same amount of buttons again. If anything, the most superfluous addition we've had of late (apart from the thankfully removed Shoha II)... is probably just Ikishoten, at least if the plan was always to drop Senei/Guren down to a mere Shinten of cost. It compels us to drop down to 40-45 Kenki before it refreshes, but it no longer has anything excusing its original implementation (in place of old Hagakure to quickly gain enough Kenki for 2 Kaiten and a Senei). Tbh, the new skill by which to instantly spend and then forget about the 50 Kenki generated seems to make it even worse in that regard, especially in that it then prevents Ogi from being consolidated into Ikishoten despite being equally strictly dependent on Iki to be castable. ������

[Carighan]

But there's no factual difference between Kaiten and Shinten. They both transform gauge into damage. They have minor implementation differences but those would be sanded off by job balancing anyways as they only affect the damage profile. Mechanically they have no difference, you just deal damage.

[RyuuZero]

But there's no factual difference between Kaiten and Shinten. They both transform gauge into damage. They have minor implementation differences but those would be sanded off by job balancing anyways as they only affect the damage profile. Mechanically they have no difference, you just deal damage.

I'd say there is: Kaiten boosts All Weaponskills, thus making The Kenki Resource Interact with all Weaponskills of the Samurai. Shinten is just an Ability that you throw out. As well as the Kenki Cost, which might be small but 20 Kenki and 25 Kenki Feel very different! I want to utilize 20 Kenki again.

I mean.. yeah Shinten is an Attack that you can use by using up those Kenki which are generated by Weaponskills, but Kaiten gave the Power back to the Weaponskills which was a nice aspect.. Now there is kinda only Hagakure which just drains your Sen into Kenki.. for what? Shinten?

[Azurarok]

wouldn't having the flexibility to shift when you boost your damage be more useful if raid buffs came in more varied timings than 2m or when you want an extra push near the end of an encounter?

[Shurrikhan]

But there's no factual difference between Kaiten and Shinten. They both transform gauge into damage. They have minor implementation differences but those would be sanded off by job balancing anyways as they only affect the damage profile. Mechanically they have no difference, you just deal damage.

In terms of total output, yes, it is impossible to differentiate anything from Glare spam. However, that nonetheless doesn't make, even with tuning aside, Reassemble feel identical to Gauss Shot or Life Surge to Jump. They're damn close, sure, but the first in each pair is more co-constrained.

That said...

wouldn't having the flexibility to shift when you boost your damage be more useful if raid buffs came in more varied timings than 2m or when you want an extra push near the end of an encounter?

Between the two, Shinten gives more control over when your damage is dealt, precisely because Kaiten's useful spending depends on the GCD immediately after its uses.

[Carighan]

That is true of course. I find a good litmus test for gameplay validity of multiple similar skills is whether you, as a player, could tell the difference if the information were removed. Imagine a scenario where both the damage numbers above the enemy and the tooltip details of both skills were redacted. It'd be incredibly difficult to figure out what both of these do different from each other. Enemies die quicker and they use gauge. And that's always a bad sign for both existing, IMO. Don't get me wrong though, I'd be fully for removing Shinten again in favor of Kaiten, even though I understand why they did it.