Bring Back Kaiten

[Arkdra]

Kaiten's animation is terrible though so hard pass.

[RyuuZero]

okay back to the topic: Kenki right now is just a Shinten gauge and the New Skill just a fancy looking Old School Guren that's a Cone. though I have the feeling that Shinten gets upgraded into Senei, basicly Shinten Spam becomes Senei Spam and maybe Kyuten becomes Guren? would skim off the ability bloat but we will see.

Another Problem that I have with the Kaiten Removal: You have no use for 20 Kenki anymore. Here's a little Challenge for those with an existing Attention Span:
regardless if you like Kaiten or not:
Think of Kaiten, Everytime you have 20 Kenki (preferably before you do something big, like an Iaijutsu or Ogi, hell every Weaponskill if you want)

[Equitable_Remedy]

It's going to be awkward when kaiten gets added back and you all have to then make a 35-page thread about why that's actually bad.

[Pavise]

Kaiten's removal was the right call it made the job more accessible, this was not aimed at all for the high end playerbase.

However they also need to fix one thing that's a plague on job design.

"Shares a Recast with" abilities on a cooldown, but one does more ST and the other is AoE.

There is absolutely zero reason for H:Senei to exist when H:Guren shares a cooldown with it, they'd be better off just buffing Guren's ST contribution to be that of Senei while still having the cleave damage it does untouched. Shoha I and II are also the same problem, they're just an extra button for extra button's sake.
Every single "Shares a Recast with" ST and AoE variant with a cooldown and is not a no cooldown resource dump should be merged together for all Jobs.

Now when comparing these to the no CD Kenki Dumps of H:Shinten and H:Kyuten, I'd say these are vital as dumps as they provide both an AoE and a ST variant they don't share a cooldown and only cost a flat amount of resource to manage your job's power bar.

[AsiTsurugi]

Kaiten's removal was the right call it made the job more accessible, this was not aimed at all for the high end playerbase...

Accessible to who exactly? The single-targeter in dungeon? The floor tank in any and all alliance raid? Or the MSQ enjoyer who presses Hakaze about 400 times before any other button and then swaps to Reaper because pressing any oGCD is way too hard for them? And how exactly did Kaiten's existence make SAM inaccessible to these strawmen-but-really-are just the type of players I have encountered just the last two days?

Inb4 "it's actually good for "midcore players"". Please explain why. Just saying words with no justification for anything said renders said words worthless, as are most opinions from tourists who "play SAM" to max level and not touch it till the next expansion, or engage with any meaningful content. No, gposing with your SAM glam for 10 hours a day is not "meaningful content" with regards to gameplay and definitely not "hunts" or "treasure maps" both of which are not affected at all by any single person's missing button presses, which is what you claim was affected detrimentally by Kaiten existing. One can even reasonably add any roulette content to that list because you can simply choose to not press buttons that you find "problematic" and get carried, which I doubt is new to the demographics you seem to think benefit from job simplification, here specifically by removing Kaiten.

[Pavise]

Kaiten's issue was that it was competing with your two other Kenki Dumps, Shinten and Kyuten which had clear defined roles as the ST and AOE dumps, like them it was a no cooldown dump (from Shadowbringers onwards before that it had a 5s cooldown) with just the wording "increases next weapon attack's damage by 50%" so it's use case was already in conflict.

To anyone that calc'd the damage gain from using it you'd find out that it would only be a net gain per kenki spent if pressed on an Iaijutsu cast only and not for any other weaponskill in our arsenal, it was a trap for the game's casual player base (flame them all you want, but they make SE more money than your sub does) who did not put 2 and 2 together comparing potency per kenki which is a much larger portion of the playerbase than you might think and they do not come to these forums.

Kaiten's use was also not complex at all in the slightest you're only kidding yourself if you think so and if it does return it's not going to add any other complexity at all to your gameplay outside of lowering Shinten/Kyuten casts and putting you back to always keeping 20 kenki minimum for the next Iaijutsu which wasn't compelling gameplay at all.

Now SE would've had numbers on their side backing up how often Kaiten was even used by the playerbase, the fact that it was removed shows just how little it would've been utilised by the casual playerbase.

Lastly going right into ad-hominem to counter anyone who can see the reasoning as to why and isn't having a mental breakdown over it, shows you're maybe needing to take a step back and look at things in a different perspective for a change.

[RyuuZero]

Kaiten wasn't competing with Shinten or Kyuten. Shinten and Kyuten were Excess Kenki Dumps + Kaiten being a 20 Kenki Spender also increased Kenki Usage over Shinten's/Kyuten's 25 Kenki.
Which is why Samurai now has less Kenki Interaction. Kinda like how they removed positionals from Monk, when you think about it. Which thinking also being reduced when your positionals are only at the Combo Enders aswell as Kenki being utilized just for burst..

Also Kaiten wasn't complex, it was fun.. and what are you talking about Shinten/Kyute having casts? Everyone can do Iaijutsu, but only masters have those 20 Kenki to boost the big hitters even bigger! That was the Deal of the Samurai and if you didn't like that, you in turn didn't like Samurai.

If SE would've cared they could've changed Kaiten to make the following weaponskill direct hit, suddenly Samurai would've leaned even further into the Self Heavy Hitter DPS than ever before, instead of "Hey! just do your lvl50 Rotation and pepper in some Shinten here and there, gg"

Kaiten on the otherhand just but a Spin on the basic Samurai Rotation that made it fun forever. But if SE would've used feedback correctly.. how do you explain Summoner?^^

The Problem is that Currently Kenki feels useless outside of some delayed bonus attacks instead of being a Natural Extension of the Samurai

[VeolE]

Kaiten's issue was that it was competing with your two other Kenki Dumps, Shinten and Kyuten which had clear defined roles as the ST and AOE dumps, like them it was a no cooldown dump (from Shadowbringers onwards before that it had a 5s cooldown) with just the wording "increases next weapon attack's damage by 50%" so it's use case was already in conflict.

To anyone that calc'd the damage gain from using it you'd find out that it would only be a net gain per kenki spent if pressed on an Iaijutsu cast only and not for any other weaponskill in our arsenal, it was a trap for the game's casual player base (flame them all you want, but they make SE more money than your sub does) who did not put 2 and 2 together comparing potency per kenki which is a much larger portion of the playerbase than you might think and they do not come to these forums.

Kaiten's use was also not complex at all in the slightest you're only kidding yourself if you think so and if it does return it's not going to add any other complexity at all to your gameplay outside of lowering Shinten/Kyuten casts and putting you back to always keeping 20 kenki minimum for the next Iaijutsu which wasn't compelling gameplay at all.

Now SE would've had numbers on their side backing up how often Kaiten was even used by the playerbase, the fact that it was removed shows just how little it would've been utilised by the casual playerbase.

Lastly going right into ad-hominem to counter anyone who can see the reasoning as to why and isn't having a mental breakdown over it, shows you're maybe needing to take a step back and look at things in a different perspective for a change.

[ThorneDynasty]

You say "accessibility", but, no really, who was the Kaiten removal for? The turbocasuals who don't bother with any other basic mechanics of their jobs either? Like all the Dragoons who do only-single target in +80 dungeons. Or the tanks who've never heard of interrupts or having sprint on their hotbar. Or the Samurai you still never see using Higanbana. Yeah, those were clearing normal content just fine not having a care in the world. You can't dumb these jobs down enough to make everyone a good player, life finds a way. Was the idea that somehow Kaiten was the thing gatekeeping them from becoming savage raiders?

So why does matter if it was "too hard" for casual players to use Kaiten? It certainly wasn't for players actually engaging in content where performance mattered.

And even if it did cause some huge damage discrepancy under certain conditions - Why not just tone down the damage boost instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like these devs love to do all the time, for some reason?

[Pavise]

Kaiten wasn't competing with Shinten or Kyuten. Shinten and Kyuten were Excess Kenki Dumps + Kaiten being a 20 Kenki Spender also increased Kenki Usage over Shinten's/Kyuten's 25 Kenki.
Which is why Samurai now has less Kenki Interaction. Kinda like how they removed positionals from Monk, when you think about it. Which thinking also being reduced when your positionals are only at the Combo Enders aswell as Kenki being utilized just for burst..[/B]

They effectively were competing for the exact same resource, both were off global uses for it especially with Kaiten's CD reduction to 1s. Kaiten's PPK (Potency per Kenki) was just tuned higher for your Iajutsu casts so you hit a different button before using them.

Here's the thing, job guage interaction does not need to be anything further than a driver for a spender. The baseline rotation already takes up every single ounce of GCD space. The Job Guage is not there to give you multiple buttons to play with it's design is generally based around giving you something extra to manage throughout an encounter that's different from your main rotation, for Samurai it's a driver for oGCD attacks through Shiten and Kyuten.

This feeds into the Samurai fantasy of a blademaster who strikes calmly and precisely at the right moment (Iajutsu), while also having the speed in executing additional attacks when they see an opening (Shinten/Kyuten).

Also Kaiten wasn't complex, it was fun.. and what are you talking about Shinten/Kyute having casts? Everyone can do Iaijutsu, but only masters have those 20 Kenki to boost the big hitters even bigger! That was the Deal of the Samurai and if you didn't like that, you in turn didn't like Samurai.[/B]

Fun is entirely subjective, the fact that it was removed means it wasn't fun to others, the feedback that SE heard regarding the job itself.

Being hyperbolic in basically saying "IF YOU DONT LIKE BUTTER YOU MUST HATE POPCORN", someone can clearly like popcorn without liking butter.

If SE would've cared they could've changed Kaiten to make the following weaponskill direct hit, suddenly Samurai would've leaned even further into the Self Heavy Hitter DPS than ever before, instead of "Hey! just do your lvl50 Rotation and pepper in some Shinten here and there, gg"

Kaiten on the otherhand just but a Spin on the basic Samurai Rotation that made it fun forever. But if SE would've used feedback correctly.. how do you explain Summoner?^^[/B]

A dev team not designing how you want them to =/= them not caring. Realistically they see a lot more metrics regarding the game that you or I will never have access to so usually when they make certain changes it's not on a whim but usually data driven.

How that Data then converts to an enjoyable gameplay experience tends to differ per attempt at reacting to feedback.

Summoner is a different kettle of fish entirely and by some accounts the rework for it is highly praised and has seen a growth in it's playerbase relative to previous incarnations, on the other hand some people think it's the brussel sprouts of gameplay.

You'll never be able to make everyone happy, the aim is usually a medium between both camps when it comes to game design.

You say "accessibility", but, no really, who was the Kaiten removal for? The turbocasuals who don't bother with any other basic mechanics of their jobs either? Like all the Dragoons who do only-single target in +80 dungeons. Or the tanks who've never heard of interrupts or having sprint on their hotbar. Or the Samurai you still never see using Higanbana. Yeah, those were clearing normal content just fine not having a care in the world. You can't dumb these jobs down enough to make everyone a good player, life finds a way. Was the idea that somehow Kaiten was the thing gatekeeping them from becoming savage raiders?

So why does matter if it was "too hard" for casual players to use Kaiten? It certainly wasn't for players actually engaging in content where performance mattered.

And even if it did cause some huge damage discrepancy under certain conditions - Why not just tone down the damage boost instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like these devs love to do all the time, for some reason?

Have you proof read your post? Or did you decide to just dribble some hyperbolic vitriol and think it made you sound cool?

While it is true you can't make something foolproof because there is always a bigger fool out there. What makes you think it's only casuals who didn't care for Kaiten and fedback their distaste for it over the years to SE? They take in multiple channels of feedback (mostly from JP).

As for why Kaiten wasn't reduced in potency? For one simple reason my dude. Potency per Kenki, which makes it so you want to press abilities over others. Reducing it's contribution and leaving it in was not on the cards due to it would have an adverse effect on Shinten, Kyuten, Guren and Senei.