Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[DioK]

At some point, people need to just realize and admit to the fact that the reason they are losing is because they suck at the game. Stop blaming other people, stop blaming the RNG, and just improve. I know that sounds like "git gud", but at some point, that really just is the answer.

I don’t like premades either, but I recognize I have the ability to just make my own premade and combat them on an equal footing. However, I simply choose not to because I’m lazy. But, I recognize and accept that fact and just focus on playing to the best of my abilities and just enjoying the fight.

If you can never admit you're wrong, you’ll never be right (because you'll have no ability to learn).

Oh, I should add, by the way, I do suck at the game, and I’m fully willing to admit that. I am mediocre, at best. But that allows me to actually look at and examine my own errors and make an effort to correct those errors and improve. I also like to win, but I’ve learned to not let my blood pressure get out of control over it. Just enjoy the fight, do your best, try to improve, and do what you can to help your team.

[Mawlzy]

At some point, people need to just realize and admit to the fact that the reason they are losing is because they suck at the game. Stop blaming other people, stop blaming the RNG, and just improve. I know that sounds like "git gud", but at some point, that really just is the answer.

I don’t like premades either, but I recognize I have the ability to just make my own premade and combat them on an equal footing. However, I simply choose not to because I’m lazy. But, I recognize and accept that fact and just focus on playing to the best of my abilities and just enjoying the fight.

If you can never admit you're wrong, you’ll never be right (because you'll have no ability to learn).

Oh, I should add, by the way, I do suck at the game, and I’m fully willing to admit that. I am mediocre, at best. But that allows me to actually look at and examine my own errors and make an effort to correct those errors and improve. I also like to win, but I’ve learned to not let my blood pressure get out of control over it. Just enjoy the fight, do your best, try to improve, and do what you can to help your team.

I don't think the primary issue is that people are frustrated that they're losing. It's the fact that, when a premade is on the field, their agency is massively reduced. It's a similar problem healers face in PvE when tanks have so much mit and self-heal that the primary function of a healer is removed. I completely agree with you that individuals should take responsibility for their weaknesses rather than blaming others. But in some cases the fundamental problem is game design.

[DioK]

I don't think the primary issue is that people are frustrated that they're losing. It's the fact that, when a premade is on the field, their agency is massively reduced. It's a similar problem healers face in PvE when tanks have so much mit and self-heal that the primary function of a healer is removed. I completely agree with you that individuals should take responsibility for their weaknesses rather than blaming others. But in some cases the fundamental problem is game design.

And the only thing I can tell you, in response, is to just make your own premade. You do have that ability and option available to you. The other option is to become a team commander and direct your alliance to victory. Often times the big problem is that people, apparently, need to be told what to do and where to go because they just don’t have the ability to figure it out for themselves.

The only real power of the premades in FL, as far as I can tell, is the DRK pull followed by the multiple AoE blasts (along the either WAR shout, RPR fear, or DNC seduction to remove the guard). But, if people are choosing to actually pay attention and anticipate the situation of the DRK pull, then it has a much reduced effect. But if people just constantly insist on standing there, clumped together, just mindlessly firing away and ignoring the possibilities, then they'll just get caught in it time and time again. At some point, one needs to just learn and adapt, and that can only happen when one is finally willing to admit that their own actions and failings are the reason they are having problems.

I used to think similar to you about these exact same things. But, then I decided to look at what I might be doing wrong and figure out ways of mitigating the situation and improving my own playing. Once I did that, DRK premades became much easier to deal with (and let's be real, the only premades causing all this trauma are the DRK premade builds). The key was to keep my brain thinking, reading the flow of battle, maintaining situation awareness, anticipating trouble moments that could get me killed, and preplanning my next actions in anticipation of changes in the battle. Also, knowing which team I need to be focusing on attacking. I’m not always perfect at it, but I’ve gotten a whole lot better than what I used to be.

I will agree at least one issue of design. Guard needs to not be so easily removed or circumvented all the time. For some classes, it's the only thing they have for a defensive measure.

[OliviaLugria]

Really feel like your exaggerating how important 4 members out of 24 are. Anyone who follows along with a condinated group will have similar performance. If 4 was all you needed I wouldn't bother calling anything. I feel it’s a far sadder state that I have to rely on a premade to ensure I get a decent guard break, damage dealer and a second dark knight.

The floor for high performance has never been so simple. Press your 3 big damage buttons on a dark pull and leave. It seems far more logical to place premades slightly above baseline with most casual players drastically below it.

It's weird that you say the problem will persist until mixed ques are removed when said problem doesn’t exist on other servers.

I'd much rather see incentives for actually performing well. Rewarding extra exp for every kill, assist, and capture while reducing the reward for participating.

[Mawlzy]

And the only thing I can tell you, in response, is to just make your own premade. You do have that ability and option available to you. The other option is to become a team commander and direct your alliance to victory. Often times the big problem is that people, apparently, need to be told what to do and where to go because they just don’t have the ability to figure it out for themselves.

I'm not going to counter what I regard as the primary flaw of the mode by becoming part of that problem. Moreover, as I indicated previously, I don't see the appeal of seal clubbing. The most engaging games for me occur when there are no premades and light commanding.

As to DRK-centered premades, you are of course correct. Their efficacy is vastly exaggerated by the failure of many players to take natural counter-measures, and that is why they persist. But they're by far the only premade option, particularly if (as has happened on Aether), people decide it would be amusing (for them) to Q-synch and dump a load of scholars on the field. You want to see really confused and dispirited casuals? Watch them get DoTted to death while having no idea what just happened.

The fundamental problem, in my opinion, is that the current FL rule-set and jobs means that coordinated LBs can be devastating. A premade with voice is the natural vehicle for maximizing LB coordination. It also compounds balance issues. The unpopular "DRK+ meta" only exists because of premades. You can make a case that, in a solo-only mode, DRKs could use a buff.

[Mawlzy]

Really feel like your exaggerating how important 4 members out of 24 are. Anyone who follows along with a condinated group will have similar performance. If 4 was all you needed I wouldn't bother calling anything. I feel it’s a far sadder state that I have to rely on a premade to ensure I get a decent guard break, damage dealer and a second dark knight.

The floor for high performance has never been so simple. Press your 3 big damage buttons on a dark pull and leave. It seems far more logical to place premades slightly above baseline with most casual players drastically below it.

It's weird that you say the problem will persist until mixed ques are removed when said problem doesn’t exist on other servers.

I'd much rather see incentives for actually performing well. Rewarding extra exp for every kill, assist, and capture while reducing the reward for participating.

What's your long-term win-rate? You mentioned when you tested the new Shatter you won the majority of your games. Do you not think four out of 24 people boosting par from 33% to above 50% indicates their impact?

I have no doubt you'd like rewards to be based on K/A. Yours are eye-watering, being artificially boosted by your premade.

[Scintilla]

Basically "working as part of this wider team of a mixed range of motivations and abilities is part of the challenge of FLs. "

Disagree on why people join premades, those motivations may vary, in some cases it could be "just people who want an easy run of it" however while that could be true of some people, there are likely people who want to play with their friends, as well as people who want to play with at least a couple of people who they can rely upon - because that is enjoyable. There is a big difference between playing with even a couple of people who have spatial awareness, use their skills, etc. etc.

Also, it is allowed , it is one of the "typical" means. If, on the other hand, you're going to refer to queue-syncing that's another discussion.

Play with friends =/= playing as coordinated premade

I might also queue with a friend or two from time to time, but when we do this, we play individually giving no extra focus or coordination with them than I would with any other random player. We don't religiously select our classes to make the classic DRK-DRG-RPR/GNB/WAR etc. combos, we won't focus our attention solely on launching coordinated LB attacks with each other and will instead play as part of the wider team, and we don't abuse a discord chat to deliver instantaneous attacks.

Playing as a random team, as much as you may try to coordinate things (utilising vokes etc.), there tends to be a few moments delay in which the DPS see the DRK begin the run in to voke and their LB cast. And these casts vary across the DPS depending on CD, cast, and how quickly they noticed the DRK. All of these delays, while only tiny, give the opponent the chance to Purify/Recuperate/Guard/run, resulting in a lower death count. In most premades, obviously this is not the case, with attacks being delivered practically instantaneously

[Scintilla]

snip

Read my post above: play with friends is not equal to playing a coordinated premade. It's the approach you take to the play which makes the difference.
Meanwhile a premade approach also forces people to play in a particular way (spend the entire game 2v1 the premade) because they want to do what they find enjoyable.
My choice only affects those who want to play as premade. The premade choice affects most (if not all) of the random players who join.

In the case of FL commanders able to coordinate randoms, I have no issue whatsoever. They're clearly good, strategic players who seem able to motivate their team and work to their abilities. They play a strong game, but not in a way which garners any sort of advantage from the outset: they learnt to command, for them to be listened to so well they must have a positive reputation amongst some or simply do well at getting player support. I have no issues at all with losing to a great team. My issue comes with premades completely shutting down the need for wider teamwork and forcing everyone into "premade yourself" and do so repeatedly (often accompanied with arrogance, but I know that claim cannot possibly be applied to all premades).

I don't play NA so I can't particularly comment on them. I do know of a few commanders having come across to EU servers recently and offering to lead (though where they came from I can't remember) and did struggle vs an average premade team. Though, of course, this may simply have been an unlucky game for them. It was in their apology that they mentioned being new to the DC and still getting used to differences. Sadly, I haven't yet had the opportunity to try the DC travel (thanks to work! ), but I would hope to soon.
If it's purely marking / burst countdowns / sounds, we get those here, albeit countdowns being not majorly common. So given your recommendation, I expect style of play there to be different in other ways. We shall see when I get the chance to go!

[Mawlzy]

If it's purely marking / burst countdowns / sounds, we get those here, albeit countdowns being not majorly common. So given your recommendation, I expect style of play there to be different in other ways. We shall see when I get the chance to go!

I look forward to your day-tripping to NA and your impressions of the game style. I break matches into four groups:

1. DRK+ premade commander takes aggressive control, uses a marker and frequent call-outs that typically include direction (objectives, when to retreat), LB countdowns. Basically follows the advice in Olivia's guide. Not sure if this is because such commanders are Olivia's alts/proteges or imitation. Produces a high win-rate, while requiring little of the 20 randos. Mostly tedious.

2. Commander takes light control, with fewer call-outs. Tends to note the strategic situation rather than dragging the team around by its collective noses. If playing DRK, usually announces the dive, sometimes via countdown. Commander is either solo or apparently leading a less-coordinated (non-voice?) premade. Mostly enjoyable.

3. No single commander, but with a handful of people contributing to call-outs. May or may not include dive countdowns depending on comp. Enjoyable, occasionally great.

4. No commander, very few call-outs from anyone. Naturally generates the greatest variation of results, and is the most dependent on whether there is a premade and/or aggressive commander on an opposing team. Some of the best matches can come from this scenario, but they are honestly rare since it requires the majority of the players to be above-average. Against a strong premade can also rapidly deteriorate into a massacre. From awful to exceptional.

[IDontPetLalas]

Play with friends =/= playing as coordinated premade

I might also queue with a friend or two from time to time, but when we do this, we play individually giving no extra focus or coordination with them than I would with any other random player. We don't religiously select our classes to make the classic DRK-DRG-RPR/GNB/WAR etc. combos, we won't focus our attention solely on launching coordinated LB attacks with each other and will instead play as part of the wider team, and we don't abuse a discord chat to deliver instantaneous attacks.

Playing as a random team, as much as you may try to coordinate things (utilising vokes etc.), there tends to be a few moments delay in which the DPS see the DRK begin the run in to voke and their LB cast. And these casts vary across the DPS depending on CD, cast, and how quickly they noticed the DRK. All of these delays, while only tiny, give the opponent the chance to Purify/Recuperate/Guard/run, resulting in a lower death count. In most premades, obviously this is not the case, with attacks being delivered practically instantaneously

Sure, that's one way of "playing with friends" however the way you described the way you - "play with friends", and my l "play with friends" in other games was quite different. It was a coordinated, static premade often using voice comm .

So I'm aware of various types, and the degree of effectiveness that various modes of communication can have in coordinating attacks. That is just part of the reason ly why I have stated multiple times in the past that all premades are not equal. That is why I don't have a major issue with the current way that premades are included in FL.

Also, what you neglect to mention is that as most people group with friends over time they do tend to recognize each other's habits and become more effective- which gives them an advantage. I would expect that give your premade advantage as well if you group together regularly enough.