Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Valence]

And you have working examples made by someone else to show for what you were specifically proposing this? You keep mentioning similar features, yet you completely fail to address what has been already shown to you as fundamentally problematic in your original idea. The only thing you were able to retort was "I don't care how you do it, just do it".

Your biggest fallacy here is to equate pointing out problems in the game to a developper and ask them to do something about it, and offering homebrewed solutions as a regular player and throwing a tantrum when told they wouldn't work by other regular players for multiple carefully laid out reasons.

[OliviaLugria]

A skill gap which you insist on widening by running your premades.

Ya, I definitly didn't write an extensive guide over frontlines, act as a mentor in pvp discords, cordinate with the rest of my alliance, and give out any advice I can to new players and commanders who ask. XD

I'm pretty capped out on skill until the floor is raised. The resources are out there for anyone who seeks them out. I think it's better for the game to bring the floor up then try and squash the ceiling.

[Mawlzy]

Ya, I definitly didn't write an extensive guide over frontlines, act as a mentor in pvp discords, cordinate with the rest of my alliance, and give out any advice I can to new players and commanders who ask. XD

I'm pretty capped out on skill until the floor is raised. The resources are out there for anyone who seeks them out. I think it's better for the game to bring the floor up then try and squash the ceiling.

You miss my point, possibly deliberately. I hope I've adequately expressed my admiration of your skill on the field, your analysis of the mode, and your obvious enthusiasm for FL. However, your playstyle does not "bring the floor up." Quite the opposite.

By exploiting the fact the mode currently allows mixed queues, you vastly exaggerate the importance of 4 players in a 24-team alliance. I would hope it's apparent why that is bad for the game, but let me spell out two specific consequences:

1. It convinces casuals that whatever they do has no impact on the result (likely true), and in some cases (based on chat), further convinces them that the entire mode is flawed since it allows premades at all. Result: they join the ranks of those exerting no effort to play the game and the skill floor drops.

2. It drives away (at least some of) the most-skilled solo players, because they dislike playing with or against premades (Source: this thread). Result: the skill floor drops.

Your approach vastly increases your win-rate. I get that. I understand why someone would place that above any other considerations. But please, let's be clear about the consequences of your actions, rather than entertain these baseless assertions that you're magically improving the skill level in FL. It simply isn't true.

This situation will persist until mixed queues are removed.

[DioK]

At some point, people need to just realize and admit to the fact that the reason they are losing is because they suck at the game. Stop blaming other people, stop blaming the RNG, and just improve. I know that sounds like "git gud", but at some point, that really just is the answer.

I don’t like premades either, but I recognize I have the ability to just make my own premade and combat them on an equal footing. However, I simply choose not to because I’m lazy. But, I recognize and accept that fact and just focus on playing to the best of my abilities and just enjoying the fight.

If you can never admit you're wrong, you’ll never be right (because you'll have no ability to learn).

Oh, I should add, by the way, I do suck at the game, and I’m fully willing to admit that. I am mediocre, at best. But that allows me to actually look at and examine my own errors and make an effort to correct those errors and improve. I also like to win, but I’ve learned to not let my blood pressure get out of control over it. Just enjoy the fight, do your best, try to improve, and do what you can to help your team.

[Mawlzy]

At some point, people need to just realize and admit to the fact that the reason they are losing is because they suck at the game. Stop blaming other people, stop blaming the RNG, and just improve. I know that sounds like "git gud", but at some point, that really just is the answer.

I don’t like premades either, but I recognize I have the ability to just make my own premade and combat them on an equal footing. However, I simply choose not to because I’m lazy. But, I recognize and accept that fact and just focus on playing to the best of my abilities and just enjoying the fight.

If you can never admit you're wrong, you’ll never be right (because you'll have no ability to learn).

Oh, I should add, by the way, I do suck at the game, and I’m fully willing to admit that. I am mediocre, at best. But that allows me to actually look at and examine my own errors and make an effort to correct those errors and improve. I also like to win, but I’ve learned to not let my blood pressure get out of control over it. Just enjoy the fight, do your best, try to improve, and do what you can to help your team.

I don't think the primary issue is that people are frustrated that they're losing. It's the fact that, when a premade is on the field, their agency is massively reduced. It's a similar problem healers face in PvE when tanks have so much mit and self-heal that the primary function of a healer is removed. I completely agree with you that individuals should take responsibility for their weaknesses rather than blaming others. But in some cases the fundamental problem is game design.

[DioK]

I don't think the primary issue is that people are frustrated that they're losing. It's the fact that, when a premade is on the field, their agency is massively reduced. It's a similar problem healers face in PvE when tanks have so much mit and self-heal that the primary function of a healer is removed. I completely agree with you that individuals should take responsibility for their weaknesses rather than blaming others. But in some cases the fundamental problem is game design.

And the only thing I can tell you, in response, is to just make your own premade. You do have that ability and option available to you. The other option is to become a team commander and direct your alliance to victory. Often times the big problem is that people, apparently, need to be told what to do and where to go because they just don’t have the ability to figure it out for themselves.

The only real power of the premades in FL, as far as I can tell, is the DRK pull followed by the multiple AoE blasts (along the either WAR shout, RPR fear, or DNC seduction to remove the guard). But, if people are choosing to actually pay attention and anticipate the situation of the DRK pull, then it has a much reduced effect. But if people just constantly insist on standing there, clumped together, just mindlessly firing away and ignoring the possibilities, then they'll just get caught in it time and time again. At some point, one needs to just learn and adapt, and that can only happen when one is finally willing to admit that their own actions and failings are the reason they are having problems.

I used to think similar to you about these exact same things. But, then I decided to look at what I might be doing wrong and figure out ways of mitigating the situation and improving my own playing. Once I did that, DRK premades became much easier to deal with (and let's be real, the only premades causing all this trauma are the DRK premade builds). The key was to keep my brain thinking, reading the flow of battle, maintaining situation awareness, anticipating trouble moments that could get me killed, and preplanning my next actions in anticipation of changes in the battle. Also, knowing which team I need to be focusing on attacking. I’m not always perfect at it, but I’ve gotten a whole lot better than what I used to be.

I will agree at least one issue of design. Guard needs to not be so easily removed or circumvented all the time. For some classes, it's the only thing they have for a defensive measure.

[Mawlzy]

And the only thing I can tell you, in response, is to just make your own premade. You do have that ability and option available to you. The other option is to become a team commander and direct your alliance to victory. Often times the big problem is that people, apparently, need to be told what to do and where to go because they just don’t have the ability to figure it out for themselves.

I'm not going to counter what I regard as the primary flaw of the mode by becoming part of that problem. Moreover, as I indicated previously, I don't see the appeal of seal clubbing. The most engaging games for me occur when there are no premades and light commanding.

As to DRK-centered premades, you are of course correct. Their efficacy is vastly exaggerated by the failure of many players to take natural counter-measures, and that is why they persist. But they're by far the only premade option, particularly if (as has happened on Aether), people decide it would be amusing (for them) to Q-synch and dump a load of scholars on the field. You want to see really confused and dispirited casuals? Watch them get DoTted to death while having no idea what just happened.

The fundamental problem, in my opinion, is that the current FL rule-set and jobs means that coordinated LBs can be devastating. A premade with voice is the natural vehicle for maximizing LB coordination. It also compounds balance issues. The unpopular "DRK+ meta" only exists because of premades. You can make a case that, in a solo-only mode, DRKs could use a buff.

[OliviaLugria]

Really feel like your exaggerating how important 4 members out of 24 are. Anyone who follows along with a condinated group will have similar performance. If 4 was all you needed I wouldn't bother calling anything. I feel it’s a far sadder state that I have to rely on a premade to ensure I get a decent guard break, damage dealer and a second dark knight.

The floor for high performance has never been so simple. Press your 3 big damage buttons on a dark pull and leave. It seems far more logical to place premades slightly above baseline with most casual players drastically below it.

It's weird that you say the problem will persist until mixed ques are removed when said problem doesn’t exist on other servers.

I'd much rather see incentives for actually performing well. Rewarding extra exp for every kill, assist, and capture while reducing the reward for participating.

[Mawlzy]

Really feel like your exaggerating how important 4 members out of 24 are. Anyone who follows along with a condinated group will have similar performance. If 4 was all you needed I wouldn't bother calling anything. I feel it’s a far sadder state that I have to rely on a premade to ensure I get a decent guard break, damage dealer and a second dark knight.

The floor for high performance has never been so simple. Press your 3 big damage buttons on a dark pull and leave. It seems far more logical to place premades slightly above baseline with most casual players drastically below it.

It's weird that you say the problem will persist until mixed ques are removed when said problem doesn’t exist on other servers.

I'd much rather see incentives for actually performing well. Rewarding extra exp for every kill, assist, and capture while reducing the reward for participating.

What's your long-term win-rate? You mentioned when you tested the new Shatter you won the majority of your games. Do you not think four out of 24 people boosting par from 33% to above 50% indicates their impact?

I have no doubt you'd like rewards to be based on K/A. Yours are eye-watering, being artificially boosted by your premade.

[OliviaLugria]

What's your long-term win-rate? You mentioned when you tested the new Shatter you won the majority of your games. Do you not think four out of 24 people boosting par from 33% to above 50% indicates their impact?

I have no doubt you'd like rewards to be based on K/A. Yours are eye-watering, being artificially boosted by your premade.

just made it to 55% the other day. Even before running premades and doing light calls I still had a respectable 40~ percent.

I take your comment to mean you don't support rewards for participating in a pvp mode? Also, thanks for leaving out the part about captures XD. If someone got an extra .25% of a level, a .5%for a kill, and maybe 1% for a capture do you think there would be less participation or more? Add in a multiplayer for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd like x1.5, x1.25, and x1.0, would people try to win? You could even have the exp gain show up in the log for a bit of dopamine. I don't see why you shouldn't reward the people doing more. My own personal performance isn't that much different with or without a premade, it really only changes the win rate. That's mostly due to drk facilitating damage more than actually doing it.