7.0 Tank Wishlist

[Oizen]

Once again can we please not get “utility” on the tanks that basically amounts to more healing

Again, I don't really think this is ever going to go the way you want it to, I've never seen the devs go back on decisions they've made here. So all its really amounting to is exuding Dark Knight from party utility the other tanks have for no real reason.

I'd love for them to admit its not a good idea and nerf the other tanks, but its flat out not going to happen. So I'm going to discuss ways they could bring Dark Knight up to the standard it needs to be at set by the other tanks rather than play the hypothetical game of "nerf the rest of the game"

[Supersnow845]

Again, I don't really think this is ever going to go the way you want it to, I've never seen the devs go back on decisions they've made here. So all its really amounting to is exuding Dark Knight from party utility the other tanks have for no real reason.

I'd love for them to admit its not a good idea and nerf the other tanks, but its flat out not going to happen. So I'm going to discuss ways they could bring Dark Knight up to the standard it needs to be at set by the other tanks rather than play the hypothetical game of "nerf the rest of the game"

But you’ve suggested something that fills a niche that doesn’t exist, DRK’s party utility is totally fine, DRK and GNB have the advantage of it being mitigation so it affects things like bleeds, but the disadvantage it only works on medical damage, PLD and WAR have the advantage shields affect everything and don’t have diminishing returns; but the disadvantage they don’t provide mitigation for things like bleeds

So you are just straight up suggesting a buff to DRK’s healing for a niche that doesn’t need to be filled, party mitigation is already balanced (regen on SIO non withstanding but the mitigation on HOL/DM is worth more against a bleed anyway

[Oizen]

But you’ve suggested something that fills a niche that doesn’t exist, DRK’s party utility is totally fine, DRK and GNB have the advantage of it being mitigation so it affects things like bleeds, but the disadvantage it only works on medical damage, PLD and WAR have the advantage shields affect everything and don’t have diminishing returns; but the disadvantage they don’t provide mitigation for things like bleeds

So you are just straight up suggesting a buff to DRK’s healing for a niche that doesn’t need to be filled, party mitigation is already balanced (regen on SIO non withstanding but the mitigation on HOL/DM is worth more against a bleed anyway

Well first off just saying SIO doesn't count is stupid. We can't just ignore that, and that buff came in a tier with a particularly punishing physical mechanic that greatly favored PLD and WAR in P10S.
And its not like PLD doesn't have some additional form of party support, it has two forms raidwide mitigation so its really getting the best of both worlds here.

The way I see it right now we have two tanks with superior party utility at no cost, and two tanks who just don't. We've equalized damage to the point where I view this as a balancing problem in itself.
So yes, I'm going to say Dark Knight and Gunbreaker need more. Or they need a real advantage of their own in some form, something that was deliberately removed from the game for the sake of balance.

Heart of Light and Dark Missonary being the exact same skill is also incredibly stupid, but thats another issue entirely.

[Supersnow845]

Well first off just saying SIO doesn't count is stupid. We can't just ignore that, and that buff came in a tier with a particularly punishing physical mechanic that greatly favored PLD and WAR in P10S.
And its not like PLD doesn't have some additional form of party support, it has two forms raidwide mitigation so its really getting the best of both worlds here.

The way I see it right now we have two tanks with superior party utility at no cost, and two tanks who just don't. We've equalized damage to the point where I view this as a balancing problem in itself.
So yes, I'm going to say Dark Knight and Gunbreaker need more. Or they need a real advantage of their own in some form, something that was deliberately removed from the game for the sake of balance.

Heart of Light and Dark Missonary being the exact same skill is also incredibly stupid, but thats another issue entirely.

I didn’t say SIO didn’t count I said the regen on it is worth less than pure mitigation from HOL/DM because shields don’t help against lingering effects unless they cancel the effect entirely (and even that has mostly been removed now so WHM doesn’t suffer), POA has to be channeled and you have to be between the party and the attack so that has its own downsides

Still what’s the problem with slight imbalance in the actual kits of the tanks, do you really just want 1 tank that does the best of everything the 4 tanks do, your logic basically circles around and around, “oh we need to give DRK and GNB better AOE mitigation but then that means that PLD falls behind in reactive healing mitigation so we need to give them heart of corrundum, but that puts WAR behind in damage from a distance so better give them a magical phase”, it just circles round and round till you have 1 tank with the best advantages of every current tank

[Oizen]

Still what’s the problem with slight imbalance in the actual kits of the tanks, do you really just want 1 tank that does the best of everything the 4 tanks do, your logic basically circles around and around, “oh we need to give DRK and GNB better AOE mitigation but then that means that PLD falls behind in reactive healing mitigation so we need to give them heart of corrundum, but that puts WAR behind in damage from a distance so better give them a magical phase”, it just circles round and round till you have 1 tank with the best advantages of every current tank

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, mainly because I fully view us as already in that situation.
Endwalker's state of tanks is a situation where "1 tank does the best of everything that the 4 tanks do" as you put it.

With WAR right now, its currently sitting as basically an omni-job with mechanics from all the other tanks slapped into it, while doing those things better than the other 3, while also being the easiest job to play in the game. The only slight, and damn do I mean slight, semblance of a downside WAR can even remotely run into right now is that it can run out of % mitigation if used poorly.

We've evened the DPS gaps between tanks, so now we have to look at what else tanks bring to a party.

You want a tank who has the strongest most spammable invul that trivializes tank mechs? You pick WAR.
You want the tank with the strongest short mit on an allied player capable of indefinitely pocketing a dps or healer while also double dipping and providing you with sustain to shrug of Autos? You pick WAR.
You want the tank with the strongest fire and forget team wide mitigation? You pick WAR.
You want the easiest tank to optimize in basically anyfight? Thats WAR.


Dark Knight gets a fat personal shield? WARS gotta have that on Bloodwhetting.
GNB getting a regen skill? Can't have that without putting that on WAR too, thank god we got Enhanced Equilibrium that basically reads "Additional Effect Aurora"
PLD getting a rework to make Veil not require you to shoot yourself in the legs to use it? Equal Attention present for WAR with Shake it Off (Overtime) so it remains the better skill of the two.


By comparison, 10% mitigation against magic damage just feels a bit mundane doesn't it?

I have less of an issue with PLD having additional tools because at least that job usually has to pay in one way or another to bring that utility.
Nothing is as hilariously free as every single skill reading "Additional Effect" for arbitrary reasons.

So I'm going to keep saying that other tanks should be able to bring this level of utility if its the norm set by Dev's Favorite.
Or at least some level of it so it just doesn't feel like the choice of tank is just a difficulty slider with no rewards at the top for playing objectively harder jobs.

[Supersnow845]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, mainly because I fully view us as already in that situation.
Endwalker's state of tanks is a situation where "1 tank does the best of everything that the 4 tanks do" as you put it.

With WAR right now, its currently sitting as basically an omni-job with mechanics from all the other tanks slapped into it, while doing those things better than the other 3, while also being the easiest job to play in the game. The only slight, and damn do I mean slight, semblance of a downside WAR can even remotely run into right now is that it can run out of % mitigation if used poorly.

We've evened the DPS gaps between tanks, so now we have to look at what else tanks bring to a party.

You want a tank who has the strongest most spammable invul that trivializes tank mechs? You pick WAR.
You want the tank with the strongest short mit on an allied player capable of indefinitely pocketing a dps or healer while also double dipping and providing you with sustain to shrug of Autos? You pick WAR.
You want the tank with the strongest fire and forget team wide mitigation? You pick WAR.
You want the easiest tank to optimize in basically anyfight? Thats WAR.


Dark Knight gets a fat personal shield? WARS gotta have that on Bloodwhetting.
GNB getting a regen skill? Can't have that without putting that on WAR too, thank god we got Enhanced Equilibrium that basically reads "Additional Effect Aurora"
PLD getting a rework to make Veil not require you to shoot yourself in the legs to use it? Equal Attention present for WAR with Shake it Off (Overtime) so it remains the better skill of the two.


By comparison, 10% mitigation against magic damage just feels a bit mundane doesn't it?

I have less of an issue with PLD having additional tools because at least that job usually has to pay in one way or another to bring that utility.
Nothing is as hilariously free as every single skill reading "Additional Effect" for arbitrary reasons.

So I'm going to keep saying that other tanks should be able to bring this level of utility if its the norm set by Dev's Favorite.
Or at least some level of it so it just doesn't feel like the choice of tank is just a difficulty slider with no rewards at the top for playing objectively harder jobs.

Yes we are in this situation because people keep constantly asking for small gaps in their kit to be fixed, you are enabling exactly how we got into this situation now by asking for buffs that aren’t needed because you see differences in classes that don’t actually cause them to struggle

You know that WAR always gets the best of everything, why even bother asking for buffs to the other tanks, they will just buff WAR again so it has its special place and the cycle goes round again, as much as you think you are asking for the “harmless” buffs it just circles around and around

[GoatOfWar]

Yes we are in this situation because people keep constantly asking for small gaps in their kit to be fixed, you are enabling exactly how we got into this situation now by asking for buffs that aren’t needed because you see differences in classes that don’t actually cause them to struggle

You know that WAR always gets the best of everything, why even bother asking for buffs to the other tanks, they will just buff WAR again so it has its special place and the cycle goes round again, as much as you think you are asking for the “harmless” buffs it just circles around and around

The alternative is Warrior receives many hefty and appropriate nerfs to bring it down to Drk's level.
No more Thrill equilibrium nonsense, no more spammable invuln, heavy nerfs to nascent and BW, healing or shields removed from Shake it off..
And the community should actively come together and ask for these nerfs. But we both know that won't happen.

So, should all tanks just arbitrarily remain worse warrior so that Warrior mains get to feel all warm and fuzzy knowing they get to do everything we do but better without any downsides?
Or do we further the powercreep in response to the unreasonable demands of the War playerbase that got us to where we are now?
Because realistically, these are the only 2 options. There's no way they're nerfing things. And i do not want to play Warrior. It's uninteresting to optimise and the job fantasy is cringe. Barbarians are not healers.

[GoatOfWar]

I didn’t say SIO didn’t count I said the regen on it is worth less than pure mitigation from HOL/DM because shields don’t help against lingering effects unless they cancel the effect entirely (and even that has mostly been removed now so WHM doesn’t suffer), POA has to be channeled and you have to be between the party and the attack so that has its own downsides

Still what’s the problem with slight imbalance in the actual kits of the tanks, do you really just want 1 tank that does the best of everything the 4 tanks do, your logic basically circles around and around, “oh we need to give DRK and GNB better AOE mitigation but then that means that PLD falls behind in reactive healing mitigation so we need to give them heart of corrundum, but that puts WAR behind in damage from a distance so better give them a magical phase”, it just circles round and round till you have 1 tank with the best advantages of every current tank

We already have a tank that gets to be the best at everything.
Best invuln, best party wide, best main tank, most consistent damage, easiest to optimise and best sustain in the game.
But everyone's ignoring it because War had 1 bad tier and streamer man mains it.