I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Maltothoris]

Just bring this thread as an idea as it shows that the JP side has kind of some of the same hypocrisy that we have over here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...feedback-is...

[ty_taurus]

Just bring this thread as an idea as it shows that the JP side has kind of some of the same hypocrisy that we have over here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...feedback-is...

I don’t get why so many people see it as either the absolute minimum or the absolute maximum. There’s no in between. Either you’re a 1 nuke, 1 DOT healer, or you’re a high octane max optimization ninja triple weaving DPS. There is no nuance. There’s no middle ground, or not even middle ground but just down the block—a casual stroll upstream from the stagnant disease-infested puddle that is healer DPS gameplay. Everything or nothing.

[Aravell]

I don’t get why so many people see it as either the absolute minimum or the absolute maximum. There’s no in between. Either you’re a 1 nuke, 1 DOT healer, or you’re a high octane max optimization ninja triple weaving DPS. There is no nuance. There’s no middle ground, or not even middle ground but just down the block—a casual stroll upstream from the stagnant disease-infested puddle that is healer DPS gameplay. Everything or nothing.

The problem of people seeing something as having 2 states is a problem that affects more than just the healer kit. Like the people who only see contributions as either "you are playing optimally and you clear the fight" or "you are playing suboptimally and you wipe and it's all your fault and your fault alone". Many people on the forums do like to take their argument to an extreme and refuse to see a middle ground, like if you look at discussion about the melee DPS jobs, people usually sit on the "delete all positionals" camp or the "restore all positionals" camp, when there could also be an answer in the middle, like let MNK have all the positionals and let RPR have none.

[ty_taurus]

The problem of people seeing something as having 2 states is a problem that affects more than just the healer kit. Like the people who only see contributions as either "you are playing optimally and you clear the fight" or "you are playing suboptimally and you wipe and it's all your fault and your fault alone". Many people on the forums do like to take their argument to an extreme and refuse to see a middle ground, like if you look at discussion about the melee DPS jobs, people usually sit on the "delete all positionals" camp or the "restore all positionals" camp, when there could also be an answer in the middle, like let MNK have all the positionals and let RPR have none.

It truly is baffling how in a game where you can change jobs at the drop of a hat, that there is such an unrelenting crusade against any semblance of individuality in job design. There are players who like positional heavy gameplay. Why can’t Monk be that job specifically for those players? And I agree, Reaper, or Viper, very well could be the job that has no positionals at all. Ideally, you’d want the No positionals job to be available early on for players rather than being unavailable till level 70/80, but that’s more my gripe with how job levels are handled for new jobs.

[ForteNightshade]

It truly is baffling how in a game where you can change jobs at the drop of a hat, that there is such this unrelenting crusade against any semblance of individuality in job design. There are players who like positional heavy gameplay. Why can’t Monk be that job specifically for those players? And I agree, Reaper, or Viper, very well could be the job that has no positionals at all. Ideally, you’d want the No positionals job to be available early on for players rather than being unavailable till level 70/80, but that’s more my gripe with how job levels are handled for new jobs.

Because the dev team themselves seem to adhere to the same philosophy: accessibility to its absolute extreme. We saw this as early as Stormblood when HW Dark Knight was completely overhauled because some people cried it was too difficult to play but they didn't want to play Warrior or Paladin since "Dark Knight's way cooler!!!" Shadowbringers is when it really took off though. Bard was completely gutted because, again "too hard!!" The healers are what they are now and tank mechanics have slowly been eroded. All so little Timmy can pick whatever job he likes based on little more than aesthetic.

The irony is Yoshida's seeming frustration with criticism towards the two minute meta ("everyone needs to come to a consensus"), healer design ("Just go play Ultimate.") and even job changes (Kaiten and "button bloat") are all directly the result of them catering so much to a crowd that didn't care about those things to begin with.

[ty_taurus]

Because the dev team themselves seem to adhere to the same philosophy: accessibility to its absolute extreme. We saw this as early as Stormblood when HW Dark Knight was completely overhauled because some people cried it was too difficult to play but they didn't want to play Warrior or Paladin since "Dark Knight's way cooler!!!" Shadowbringers is when it really took off though. Bard was completely gutted because, again "too hard!!" The healers are what they are now and tank mechanics have slowly been eroded. All so little Timmy can pick whatever job he likes based on little more than aesthetic.

The irony is Yoshida's seeming frustration with criticizing towards the two minute meta ("everyone needs to come to a consensus"), healer design ("Just go play Ultimate.") and even job changes (Kaiten and "button bloat") are all directly the result of them catering so much to a crowd that didn't care about those things to begin with.

Here's how I would handle starting job levels in hindsight, if it were me in charge:

Every job added after ARR would start at level 30 and is accessible as soon as the player hits level 30. When new jobs are added, at the start of the expansion, there would be an EXP event for those new jobs that would drastically increase the amount of EXP gained form all sources for those jobs until maybe around X.05, or even X.1 until that job reaches the former level cap. In the upcoming examples, Viper and Pictomancer would start at 30, but might be receiving a 5x EXP modifier not just for defeating enemies, but for things like roulette bonuses and Wondrous Tails, etc until those jobs hit level 90. So anyone looking to play the new expansion with that new job would basically cruise through levels rapidly.

[Heroman3003]

Here's how I would handle starting job levels in hindsight, if it were me in charge:

Every job added after ARR would start at level 30 and is accessible as soon as the player hits level 30. When new jobs are added, at the start of the expansion, there would be an EXP event for those new jobs that would drastically increase the amount of EXP gained form all sources for those jobs until maybe around X.05, or even X.1 until that job reaches the former level cap. In the upcoming examples, Viper and Pictomancer would start at 30, but might be receiving a 5x EXP modifier not just for defeating enemies, but for things like roulette bonuses and Wondrous Tails, etc until those jobs hit level 90. So anyone looking to play the new expansion with that new job would basically cruise through levels rapidly.

That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

[Supersnow845]

That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

The high level jobs create problems though in that people don’t know how to handle the jobs going into content that is designed to the basic class understanding in mind

Did you ever have to do holminster switch with a level 70 SGE who never picked up a healer before

Omni 90 shouldn’t be expected or actively encouraged without trying, Being level 90 in a class should mean that you can be dropped into current normal content and be able to do your job and do it decently, people getting classes at 70 then doing the MSQ roulette for a week then spamming diagnosis in dead ends is a serious problem with this game, sure if you start them on 30 they will probably just spam diagnosis in the MSQ roulette for a month instead but it may help some people, I definitely noticed that SGE is a great example of a class with a deceptively high skill floor but a very low skill ceiling, picking up SGE at 70 feels terrible, picking it up at 30 feels totally natural

[ty_taurus]

That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

The idea would be the amount of time it takes to level a job when released to the old max level should be the same time it takes to level it normally to the old max level. But how about this for your more softer palette: All jobs just are max level. No grind necessary, everything just is level 100 at DT's release.

[fulminating]

Not only that, but have you played reaper or summoner below 70? I'm convinced the only reason sage and gunbreaker are tolerable is due to them following the template so closely.