All The Doom Threads Are Strange To Me

[Erzaa]

Every critical engagement is at the quality of an alliance raid boss

So you have

-30 unique critical engagements
-3(4) Boses from castrum (I won’t include Lyon as a seperate boss)(if the two first bosses count separately is debatable)
-4(6) bosses from DRN (dahu and ghost are debatable)
-4(5) Boses from dal (again debatable on the first split boss)

So 41 at the bottom end, 45 at the top end, I’m not even discussing fates here, I think people underestimate the complexity of bozja’s fates but I’m intentionally omitting them to prove a point, an alliance raid has 12 Boses, so Bozja functionally gave us 3.5 whole extra alliance raids, I cannot overstate how much extra casual content of undeniable quality (since a lot of it is modelled off the universally beloved ivalice) that is

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

And Variant dungeons aren't that different. They're super fun the first few times, even seeing the minor mechanic changes here and there on separate paths, but then you still need to repeat them over and over and over if you plan on getting all the rewards. Getting all 12 paths isn't even enough to get enough currency to buy all rewards.

When did repeating old content ad nauseum become new quality content?

[Supersnow845]

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

The design of the relic steps is entirely external the argument of the quality of the content Bozja added as is variant, this isn’t about repetition of said content, this is about entirely unique content Bozja added

[Erzaa]

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

The argument is that, it's the exact same content as any other expansion. That's it. It's really fun the first time, it's fun the second time, it's enjoyable the fifth time, and then it's a snoozefest that you just want to get over and done with the 20th time. At least this time around, the 20th or 24th time, is the last time. You don't need to repeat it for 1,5 months and pretend that's quality.

The CEs were fun the first few times, learning the fight, dying to them. The raids were fun, because they felt like a real assault on a military base. They're all quality fights, the first few times. The Variant bosses were the same, especially that Samurai person, which I died to endless times at first. Even after figuring out how he works, it was still confusing finding the safe spot.

How is repeating them 180 times better than repeating them 20 times though? What exactly makes those quality content?

[Jeeqbit]

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

They are good because, unlike farming Expert dungeons all week, farming Bozja meant you got a variety of different bosses in different orders. It wasn't set in stone which CE would be next or if certain CEs would even spawn while you were there. There was so much variety, whereas if you do an Expert roulette, it's the same 3 bosses, in the same order.

SE did put the degree of development into CEs that they put into dungeon or trial bosses. Internally, that is the sort of work they put in. It wasn't just "let's give it a conal AoE to spam" like fates.

[Erzaa]

They are good because, unlike farming Expert dungeons all week, farming Bozja meant you got a variety of different bosses in different orders. It wasn't set in stone which CE would be next or if certain CEs would even spawn while you were there. There was so much variety, whereas if you do an Expert roulette, it's the same 3 bosses, in the same order.

SE did put the degree of development into CEs that they put into dungeon or trial bosses. Internally, that is the sort of work they put in. It wasn't just "let's give it a conal AoE to spam" like fates.

Agreed! There was some randomness to them, at first. But eventually, they're finite. You're going to see them all, learn them all then repeat them all ad nauseum, they're going to get old, just like any other raid, any other roulette, any other piece of content in the game.

Why is it better for someone to repeat content 100 times and that's quality, instead of 20 times, get your reward and be on your merry way?

[Banriikku]

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

THIS.... if reptition is bad then Dungeons, Raids, leveling a char, crafting, gathering, fishing, etc. all are bad. This is not true. This is way too generalised. The way its done matters. I love DnD, but if you look at it you can summarize its always the same on a certain level. You want to differentiate between "unfun grind" and a repeating task that is fun and entertaining. Both fall under the definition of grind but are not the same.

[Supersnow845]

The argument is that, it's the exact same content as any other expansion. That's it. It's really fun the first time, it's fun the second time, it's enjoyable the fifth time, and then it's a snoozefest that you just want to get over and done with the 20th time. At least this time around, the 20th or 24th time, is the last time. You don't need to repeat it for 1,5 months and pretend that's quality.

The CEs were fun the first few times, learning the fight, dying to them. The raids were fun, because they felt like a real assault on a military base. They're all quality fights, the first few times. The Variant bosses were the same, especially that Samurai person, which I died to endless times at first. Even after figuring out how he works, it was still confusing finding the safe spot.

How is repeating them 180 times better than repeating them 20 times though? What exactly makes those quality content?

If you do them once and only once you are getting 3.5 extra alliance raid series worth of high quality bosses, where is the equivalent to that in EW’s battle content

Variant certainly doesn’t have it, variant has 12 bosses between 3 dungeons, if I generously include the 9 EO Boses (and I’m stretching it, DD bosses have like 1.5 mechanics) EW still falls 13 bosses short of ShB not even accounting for how much variability lost actions add

Even if you do this content once, it’s still not remotely comparable

[snipski]

All games die eventually FFXIV is no different. Game overall is way to easy, PVP fucking sucks ballz what are you supposed to do login for EVENTS every few months and just logout?

The Graphic update seem like a joke i couldnt tell any diffrence between the pics they showed us.
Bozja was the last content i actually enjoyed that says something about this game the whole Endwalker was super bad.

[Jeeqbit]

Agreed! There was some randomness to them, at first. But eventually, they're finite. You're going to see them all, learn them all then repeat them all ad nauseum, they're going to get old, just like any other raid, any other roulette, any other piece of content in the game.

Why is it better for someone to repeat content 100 times and that's quality, instead of 20 times, get your reward and be on your merry way?

I'm not gonna decide on a timeframe. That's for SE to do. But having grindy content is good for players who want to spend more than a day playing.

What I've always thought was good about this game is how:
casual players can do the content once, probably getting carried through it by healers, then unsubscribe until the next patch.
hardcore players can farm mounts and take a lot of time, get really good at the fights, experience the content a decent amount of times.

The amount of times we need to farm is for SE to figure out, but to me the difference from prior expansions has been how the content either isn't battle content, or is overly quiet like Island Sanctuary or being able to solo variants.

[AnotherPerson]

What less content does Endwalker have? I've been reading for months about how Endwalker has less content, it even made me excited to be able to catch up when I saw that, but I just recently reached the patches and from what I see it's the same amount of content as any other expansion.

Shadowbringers didn't have a Deep Dungeon but had Bozja. Endwalker has Variant Dungeons and a Deep Dungeon but no Bozja/Eureka area, Island Sanctuary, and now we're getting a new Allied Tribes quest and Hildy's back, both of which were missing in Shadowbringers. Every other piece of content is the same. If anything, there's more content in Endwalker than there was in Shadowbringers, it's just less grindy.

It's the type of content catered to the audience.

Stormblood has Eureka and Deep Dungeon. Ivalice raids back in the day were hard enough to be considered a step up from casual, but not to the extent of extremes.
Shadowbringers had Bozja. Nier raids back in the day is also considered a step up from casual, but not to the extent of extremes.
Endwalker has Island Sanctuary and Deep Dungeon. Island Sanctuary is a solo activity for the most part and is completely casual.

If you look, compare, and contrast, the difference in the content is the audience it caters to.

Eureka catered to large groups of players and had a difficulty hovering somewhere between casual and extreme. Deep Dungeon catered to a small group of people for a high difficulty long dungeon.
Bozja catered to large groups of players and had a difficulty hovering somewhere between casual and extreme. Alliance raids catered to players who wanted something a bit more challenging than casual content with more players, but nothing as time consuming like extreme.
Island Sanctuary catered to solo playstyle and is completely casual. Variant dungeon catered to a small group of people and is casual.
Criterion dungeon & Criterion Savage dungeon catered to a small group of people and is high difficulty content that requires Savage gear / BiS.
Endwalker's alliance raids catered to a large group of people, but the difficulty is akin to casual. It much lower than the previous alliance raids on launch. This expansion's alliance raids showed mechanics one at a time before actually doubling the mechanic up instead of making it chaotic. Compared to wiping and struggling with previous alliance raids, the alliance raids I've been in barely struggled as much when going in blind.

There's nothing equivalent to large group of players with a difficulty hovering somewhere between casual and extreme. Endwalker came with plenty of content, but it is targeted to casual or high-end, and in different numbers. There's nothing in Endwalker for players who want to play with large groups and have a difficulty above casual and with good recovery, but not to the level of mechanics of extremes.