I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Aravell]

Your first statement was "A lot", I believe, which is relative to the playerbase, so we don't have a metric to that. Though honestly I have less issue with that than with you saying that if some people (of unknown number and unknown percentage of the playerbase) are saying a thing, it must be looked into. Firstly, because we don't know the Devs didn't look into it and just disagree. Secondly, because we don't know how many weren't asking for or wanting it.

The "a lot of people" part of my statement was referring to people who joined the game during ShB/EW asking for more damage options for all healers, this can be proven by seeing the posts in the healer subsection of the forums. Everything else in my statement does not have any sort of appeal to majority attached to it. I choose my words very carefully because anyone will jump on anything they can on these forums.

Does it make sense to you NOW?

I've said all this before, but maybe this time...it will make sense to you...?

I never once said what you're saying doesn't make sense. I understand your viewpoint, but that doesn't stop me from feeling resentful that there are people who treat the current playerbase as a protected class while telling the people who loved the HW and SB era of jobs to go pound sand because they already lost what they did while the current players stand to lose something now. If people want to push for an "us vs them" scenario, I will throw full support behind the side that I favour.

I'm not obligated to support a side that wants my favoured playstyle erased from the game forever. Am I selfish for that? Yes. Do I care after so many years of the devs deleting everything I love about the healer role? No.

[Renathras]

I never once said what you're saying doesn't make sense. I understand your viewpoint, but that doesn't stop me from feeling resentful that there are people who treat the current playerbase as a protected class while telling the people who loved the HW and SB era of jobs to go pound sand because they already lost what they did while the current players stand to lose something now. If people want to push for an "us vs them" scenario, I will throw full support behind the side that I favour.

I'm not obligated to support a side that wants my favoured playstyle erased from the game forever. Am I selfish for that? Yes. Do I care after so many years of the devs deleting everything I love about the healer role? No.

So you're mad at some people, but not me.

So why reject a solution I propose that is explicitly meant to help give you back some of what you lost, due to me genuinely caring about you having lost it?

You seem to accept that I didn't support harming you/them then. And you say you understand my viewpoint, so that means you understand I do wish to help now. Can you set your resentment aside for a solution that grants both?

You don't HAVE to hurt the people who enjoy healers now to get some SB healer kits back. You also shouldn't want to stick it to them, since most people that enjoy healers now didn't ask for or demand or force the changes. They were innocent bystanders to them. I get feeling resentment, but again, I feel like you're an intelligent person. Surely you can see that resentment is misplaced? And that holding on to that resentment, forcing you to reject a solution that would restore what you lost, is actually hurting you, not them?

No one's asking you to support a side.

I'm only asking you to consider accepting a solution that restores to you some of what you lost. (ALL of what you lost if you accept that WHM Lilies were garbage.)

[Aravell]

So you're mad at some people, but not me.

So why reject a solution I propose that is explicitly meant to help give you back some of what you lost, due to me genuinely caring about you having lost it?

You seem to accept that I didn't support harming you/them then. And you say you understand my viewpoint, so that means you understand I do wish to help now. Can you set your resentment aside for a solution that grants both?

You don't HAVE to hurt the people who enjoy healers now to get some SB healer kits back. You also shouldn't want to stick it to them, since most people that enjoy healers now didn't ask for or demand or force the changes. They were innocent bystanders to them. I get feeling resentment, but again, I feel like you're an intelligent person. Surely you can see that resentment is misplaced? And that holding on to that resentment, forcing you to reject a solution that would restore what you lost, is actually hurting you, not them?

No one's asking you to support a side.

I'm only asking you to consider accepting a solution that restores to you some of what you lost. (ALL of what you lost if you accept that WHM Lilies were garbage.)

Maybe you skipped over when I said it, but I said I'm amiable to your solution if SGE is left as is, because SGE was designed in EW, it has never known any past iteration that people fell in love with, so no one is actually losing out on anything. So I never actually opposed your solution, I'm not someone you have to convince. If we can't have a skill ceiling on every healer, I can settle with keeping SGE as it is, I'm not ok with throwing WHM under the bus once again given their history of being bad.

You'll have massive trouble convincing everyone else to leave SGE as is though, because it's what SE calls the dps healer, also the lore behind it is that it's very complex. Not that SE cares about the lore anymore, given that the lv30 AST quest still says The Bole has a protective effect.

[Renathras]

Maybe you skipped over when...

It is a conundrum. I think the disagreement there stems from SGE being more damage focused (as you point out) and about WHM being thrown under the bus. Far as I'm concerned, WHM post-6.1 is honestly the best it's ever been. ARR would be but for Cleric Stance being such a disaster, but it's runner up due to the fact it wasn't a big deal at the time anyway. It would be weird for the "dps focused" healer Job to be the least DPS rotation of them, but it would still be a passable solution.

Of course, the problem still remains that if people won't allow for that, then WHM would be the other logical choice.

zzzzzz

Was hoping for a link. Will have to see if I can find it in the healer forum (guessing it was posted there) later.

SGE easier than WHM?

...agree to disagree.

I'd rate SGE 2nd myself, so I'm not saying it's super high end, but Lilies just flow so much better than anything SGE has to me and largely get the job done with far fewer buttons it needs to use to do so.

Just goes to show how much passion to make the role 'the best it can be' there is from all sides I guess.

With this, I agree. At the very least, we can say there are a lot of people that care.

.

EDIT:

Oh, not proposing this, per se, since it's more a "just popped into my head" thought but...

What if Kardia had a toggle where you could swap between AOE and single target? The single target version would do whatever it does (150 healing to the Kardia target per DPS spell used, whatever), the AOE version splits this to 25 (or 20?) per person - technically more for an 8 man party (6 people injured would be the break even point for 25, 20 would only break even-ish with 8 for 160 total), but where it's a lot lighter amount of healing. That would be the only way it'd make sense for me to have that free healing all the time.

Otherwise, something like a 60 sec CD for 10 sec would make more sense to me. "But that's too powerful!" That's Whispering Dawn... <_< "But what if you use Pankardia for Soteria?!" Just make Soteria only work with the Kardion effect, not the Pankardion effect. Simple.

[Shurrikhan]

It is a conundrum. I think the disagreement there stems from SGE being more damage focused (as you point out) and about WHM being thrown under the bus.

How is Sage more "damage-focused" than anyone else? It has fewest considerations going into its rDPS of any healer, the greatest amount of free healing, and the second lowest rDPS (not that it matters when they're all neck-and-neck)...

[Renathras]

How is Sage more "damage-focused" than anyone else? It has fewest considerations going into its rDPS of any healer, the greatest amount of free healing, and the second lowest rDPS (not that it matters when they're all neck-and-neck)...

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

Though for the record, I didn't say "than anyone else", and I was agreeing with Aravell, so you'll have to ask her what she meant. I know that the general methodology is to attack Ren, but when Ren is just agreeing with someone else, you should be grilling them on what they meant.

.

Avarell, can you answer Shurrikhan? She wants to know what you mean by SGE being "the dps healer".

.

EDIT: Apologizes, that's it for me today.

You might need to play the job more to get used to it...I feel this is a lack of skill issue.

Not wanting to fight over it but:

1) Depends on content, 7-10% of healing isn't exactly something to throw away.
2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).
3) Agreed with "Might be true".
4) I said this, did I not? "though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons".
5) Casters don't need positioning in general. SGE has to move close to the boss for Plegma and has more dependence on angle for Pneuma if trying to hit more than one target. None of the other healers have this issue. WHM with Misery has a similar targeting the center of groups for AOE like Pneuma, but can do it from range, and no other healer has a line AOE outside of WHM in PvP.

Also "lack of skill issue" is a pretty pathetic cheap shot; I didn't say it was debilitating, nor significant. I do like how you guys will go out of your way to "attack Ren for saying something commonly held", even things others of you say, and attack me for saying it instead of attacking others you agree with. It's like if I cured cancer you'd be complaining I was putting doctors out of work.

I also like how you guys love proving me right:

Collectively, you've taken a question to Aravell, grilled me for it instead, and then attacked me as a player over it. Bravo. /golfclap

[Katish]

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

Though for the record, I didn't say "than anyone else", and I was agreeing with Aravell, so you'll have to ask her what she meant. I know that the general methodology is to attack Ren, but when Ren is just agreeing with someone else, you should be grilling them on what they meant.

.

Avarell, can you answer Shurrikhan? She wants to know what you mean by SGE being "the dps healer".

1. Untrue, I have barely even applied Kardia and can still heal fine and even OUTHEAL the pure healer I'm with usually....
2. Debatable, 1 extra button doesn't make a kit more involved when you barely press that button as it is on cooldown
3. Might be true but see 2
4. This does not matter, SGE doesn't need it, see 1
5. What do you mean? All healers have to position themselves given they are casters...


You might need to play the job more to get used to it...I feel this is a lack of skill issue.

SGE is the easiest among the healers, imo even more so than the WHM when you understand how it works, it's less beginner friendly, sure but once you get it, you get it. SGE capitalizes on mitigation without sacrificing damage as most of its skills can be used in tandem (woven) and you really never have to play risky to get the most out of it...(if you play SGE, the goal is mitigation if the tank(s) need it), where with WHM you might need to be a little more risky, especially if your tank is new and you're running dungeons to get the most out of it.

WHM is a little more fun (again imo [healers are kind of meh atm]), because you are playing a little more riskier for that reward of damage, allowing your tank to dip to alarming levels of HP but then coming in with Benediction to basically negate it.

[Katish]

1) Depends on content, 7-10% of healing isn't exactly something to throw away.
2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).
3) Agreed with "Might be true".
4) I said this, did I not? "though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons".
5) Casters don't need positioning in general. SGE has to move close to the boss for Plegma and has more dependence on angle for Pneuma if trying to hit more than one target. None of the other healers have this issue. WHM with Misery has a similar targeting the center of groups for AOE like Pneuma, but can do it from range, and no other healer has a line AOE outside of WHM in PvP.

Also "lack of skill issue" is a pretty pathetic cheap shot; I didn't say it was debilitating, nor significant. I do like how you guys will go out of your way to "attack Ren for saying something commonly held", even things others of you say, and attack me for saying it instead of attacking others you agree with. It's like if I cured cancer you'd be complaining I was putting doctors out of work.

I also like how you guys love proving me right:

Collectively, you've taken a question to Aravell, grilled me for it instead, and then attacked me as a player over it. Bravo. /golfclap

[Sorry for the double post, but answering a comment, that's been edited seems weird]

First off, this is the forum so when you post your comment here expect it to be "OPEN" no matter who you are addressing...especially with making claims on something where everyone could have an idea for or argument against. You can't just "Well I think the planet is flat" and not expect some counter-arguments lel or even supporting comments.
Second I wasn't attacking you, learning your job is still a thing no matter where you are at in the game...when you argue something wrong you need only learn why it is wrong to learn. If you think everything is an attack...well you have other concerns. Not everyone is a god at playing every job, and that's just obvious...

Now:
1) This is all content, I still outheal the pure healers.
2) Pneuma is basically only for healing...I mean it's Macrocosmos for SGE lel with less potency given the mechanic you'd save it for.
4) I addressed all content, not just dungeons.
5) They do when mechanics are going off. Regardless Phlegma, should be saved for the two minute burst window (if you're doing that content) and at that time there's plenty of time to adjust (which you should have plenty of range).

[Amenara]

2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).

I might be crazy but SGE and WHM have the same number of DPS spells. Assize is just Phlegma without charges. Pnuema is more of a healing CD than a damage spell. Toxicon is your movement spell if you can't get Dosis off. If I had to guess I'd say WHM uses Afflatus Misery more often than SGE uses Toxicon in fights.

[Shurrikhan]

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

1. Which doesn't make it more damage-focused so much as simply having fewer conflicts with its damage dealing such that it can spend of the least focus on making the most (of its) damage opportunities. (It also has competitive healing even if we exclude Kardia; SGE's free-healing is flat-out overtuned.)

2. I said rDPS. And hitting da buttons on de CD is not even as open to nuance as Misery, let alone Cards (even the modern ones) or, as you mentioned, Dissipation+EDs.

3. If you count Pneuma among rDPS actions, you should also count Assize, Energy Drain, and Cards. Misery, Assize, Dia, Glare vs. Peuma, Phlegma, Dosis, EuDosis.

4. SCH oGCD direct heal: 600p. SGE oGCD direct: 700p + Miti or 600p. WHM AoE oGCD: 400p. SGE AoE oGCD: 400p. Its spot-healing is... totally fine.

5. Fair, but I'm already counting those when saying that I don't find SGE particularly any more "damage focused" than the others. Optimizing its rDPS is, for the most part, easier than on AST or SCH (with Disp) and, for anyone familiar with melee range existing, no harder than WHM.

Regardless, that much is largely minutia. My point is that I don't think the devs remotely succeeded in creating a "damage-focused" healer and calling SGE that feels pretty laughable to me.

Even calling it "more" damage-focused (which, again, I don't agree is true) seems an like an argument between brown and an indistinguishably browner brown -- more likely intended for distraction/dismissal than actually productivity in any topic but "Who should get more damage focus?" (and even then, only because of what it was supposed to do, not what it's actually done).