I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

I play a healer precisely because I suck at complex dps rotations. I can perform at a mediocre level as dancer or red mage, but beyond that, no, I'm bad at dps. If healer dps rotations became more complex, and I was expected to perform at a certain dps level as a healer, I could no longer play FFXIV. I don't want my healer dps rotation to become more complex. If anything has to change, I'd prefer healing itself become slightly more challenging (emphasis on the slightly). If you want complex dps rotations, there's a plethora of dps jobs that can provide that. Healer's may be capable and expected to provide dps, but that's not their primary role, and complicating their dps will just reinforce the idea that healers are just green dps. That's not a notion I think should be reinforced.

I think the best part about this stance is that I (and others like me who have done theorycrafting of how to add more damage buttons) have actually considered this POV, and implemented countermeasures to my theorycraft to reduce this issue, yet it would still likely get naysayed by a player such as this, just because of the principle of 'no dont add more damage buttons to a healer, they're meant to heal'. With the WHM idea I theorycrafted for example, and the potency values I came up with, you could play either 'optimally' or 'like you do now' (aka, refresh DOT when it falls off, spam Glare), and the difference in damage between the two would be 2%. You'd also have more ways to preserve your damage, given that you would use the DOT more often, and the new damage button (Water/Banish) would be an instantcast too. This means losing less damage to interrupting Glare casts due to movement. Additionally, you'd have access to another healing tool which is damage neutral, meaning you would preserve even more damage in the situations where you have to heal

Bad news for you, if you can't keep up with a slightly more involved damage rotation, you are not going to keep up with a more stressful healing paradigm. Difference is, messing up at the damage rotation would cost you a variable amount of damage (again, could be as low as 2%). Messing up due to not being able to keep up on healing required means potential deaths or even a teamwipe. You're not going to be forced to 'quit the game' if we went back to SB's level of complexity, where WHM has a shorter DOT duration and one extra damage button (back then it was another DOT to track the timer of too, Aero3) please don't be so melodramatic

[ty_taurus]

Oops, I accidentally bumped.

[mallleable]

Gonna post this here as well.

Could dual cast or some other mechanic like it work for WHM? Like, WHM gets dual cast, and it also gets chunky stone, and aero spells to use it on -- they could even give them cleave to be hotbar space efficient. Or casting Glare grants stacks of Tranquil Hearts or something which reduce the cast/recast time of specified spells like the previously mentioned aero, and stone spells as well as healing spells. I've mentioned this in an other 'boring healer DPS' thread, but I feel like if there were any jobs that WHM could take inspiration from to create a potential DPS rotation they would be either RDM or BLM.

[IDontPetLalas]

Gonna post this here as well.

Could dual cast or some other mechanic like it work for WHM? Like, WHM gets dual cast, and it also gets chunky stone, and aero spells to use it on -- they could even give them cleave to be hotbar space efficient. Or casting Glare grants stacks of Tranquil Hearts or something which reduce the cast/recast time of specified spells like the previously mentioned aero, and stone spells as well as healing spells. I've mentioned this in an other 'boring healer DPS' thread, but I feel like if there were any jobs that WHM could take inspiration from to create a potential DPS rotation they would be either RDM or BLM.

Nice idea, and it's always good to get a new perspective (even though, personally I would find a skill name like "tranquil hearts" somewhat too sweet for words, could just imagine like little hearts floating up over a lala) .

However, just pointing out, it's not exclusive to WHM, all healers are affected by this.

[Sebazy]

Gonna post this here as well.

I've always been a big fan of WHM getting Thundercloud style procs on a dot, IMO your dual cast idea with a tweak could play quite nicely into that as well...

Don't just make make a plain dual cast effect, make the second fast cast an actual fast GCD. Like DNC step speed GCD.

I think the kit would need filling out a little to provide depth to this effect (Eg give us back Aero 3 but it has a super long cast and we want to Dual Cast it, then give us a bonus if we can combine that with a thundercloud proc) and IMO it would need to have some kind of cooldown on the dual cast effect, like 1 dual cast for every 3 Glares or something to stop it getting monotonous. IMO a sporadic shift in pace to the GCD would do *WONDERS* for breaking up how mind numbing WHM currently feels if you're not being pressured.

On a mildly related note, SE really really should look into enabling hold versions of abilities. I've mentioned Genshin before, but Io in Granblue Relink so far is supremely fun as a caster and brings a lot of depth to the table despite basically playing around 4 buttons and a modifier. A big chunk of that is how button holds form such a key part of her gameplay.

[mallleable]

Just messing around with the PVP version of AST on a striking dummy, and Double Cast is neat ability that could be utilized to create an actual damage rotation for AST. I hope it shows up in the rework.

[KageTokage]

Just messing around with the PVP version of AST on a striking dummy, and Double Cast is neat ability that could be utilized to create an actual damage rotation for AST. I hope it shows up in the rework.

In all seriousness, the only thing I'm expecting is for them to dumb down the card mechanics even further by stripping the RNG away entirely.

...Though if that means AST would have an additional offensive button it can access reliably, I'd probably end up liking that more then fishing for seals to maximize buff output.

[ForsakenRoe]

In all seriousness, the only thing I'm expecting is for them to dumb down the card mechanics even further by stripping the RNG away entirely.

the RNG IS the AST identity though, making it 'predictable', even as much as they have done so far with SB > SHB changes (removing unique effects for cards, replacing with 'they all give more damage'), has gone down pretty poorly with a lot of players. The 'predictability' of the damage is nice, sure, and I imagine that it's great for the devs in terms of making job balancing easier, but I'd expect that if they want to 'dumb cards down' more it'd be by using the same thing we saw as Urianger in the finale of SHB patch quests: AOE card effects. Changing the cards from 6% on correct/3% on incorrect roles, to 'it's AOE, and is 2% on correct/1% on incorrect', making the card effects able to stack and not overwrite, and then moving down to having only, say, two cards per burst window, would make the APM much lower, while keeping the cards as having relatively the same impact as currently (given that they're now AOE), going from 6% on one person to a total of 12% split across all 8 players (and only two of those will be 'correct DPS', 2 melees or 1ranged/1caster, the other 'correct targets' would be tanks or healers who naturally deal less damage)

Ironically, I think making the cards have any AOE was the reason they couldn't be balanced in the first place. Trying to make a 10% damage buff for one person compete vs, say, 20% mitigation, or a GCD haste buff or crit rate, it's a lot easier to balance that, compared to '5% damage for everyone in the team, vs 10% mitigation on everyone' when it comes to damage output. It's literally like asking 'okay which would you rather have, Embolden or Magick Barrier', of course it could not be balanced. So instead of 'dumbing it down' even further, and driving away people who enjoy AST for what it is/was, a faster paced APM healer with a decision-making process for their 'system', the cards, I'd rather they just add unique effects to the cards again, while keeping them single target. The 'big burst window' can still be Divination, but the cards themselves I'd like to see recapture the 'I can choose to use this in a nonconventional way to aid the team better, even if it seems 'suboptimal' to do so' perspective.

To which end, this is something along the lines of what I'd like to see:

Major Arcana: now autodraws one card every 30s. If you have one already and a second 'recharge time' is completed, the second card will be placed in 'the Spread', to use a pre-SHB term. 'Play Major Arcana' will always play the Drawn card first, then the Spread card afterwards. If you have a card both Drawn and Spread, the timer pauses. This is intended to make the 'Spread' feel more like a 'leeway' to prevent overcapping. For optimization, you can dump two cards at 1min, then two at 2min in raidbuffs if you so wish

Minor Arcana: now draws a Minor Arcana every 15s. When you have a Minor Arcana drawn, the timer completing a charge again will 'Spread' a second Minor Arcana card. If a Minor Arcana card is both Drawn and Spread, like with the Majors, the timer to generate a new Minor Arcana will pause. Unlike Major Arcana, where the effects are strong enough to justify pooling for the burst window, the Minor Arcana is not that big a jump in potency (hopefully) to be worth delaying until raidbuffs, as the short recharge means you will likely lose a use if you delay too much

Playing Major Arcana is still OGCD, but Minor Arcana are GCD. A Major and a Minor effect can be on the same player at once, but not two Majors, or two Minors at once. EG, you can have 'the Balance and 'the Cups', but not 'the Cups' and 'the Pentacles', as those are two Minor Arcana. The Burst Window (tm) would essentially be Divination, Minor Major Minor Major. You would be able to delay a little between card uses by filling with a Malefic, to buy time to consider your next Card target. Because of Minor Arcana moving over to be GCD, the intention would be that it would both help to break up the Malefic monotony outside the burst window, and simultaneously free up some 'required double-weaves' into single-weaves, reducing the reliance on Lightspeed for the burst window's execution (allowing it to be used more for mobility)

Additionally, Sleeve Draw would return, becoming a 2charge, 60s charge time action. When you use it, your currently drawn Minor Arcana becomes a Lady of it's suit. This guarantees that inside the burst window, your Minor Arcana is always going to have the maximum effect.

Major Arcana effects:

Balance: 10% damage, 15s.

Bole: 20% damage mitigation, 15s. Additionally, grants 3 stacks of Bole's Bulwark, causing the enemy that strikes the bearer of this buff to take 10% of that ally's Max HP as damage and consuming one stack.

Arrow: Grants 10 stacks of 'Arrow's Assault' (12 if the target is PhysRanged), increasing Autoattack rate by 400%. One stack is consumed for each Autoattack dealt under it's effect, and upon consuming all stacks, the Autoattack rate returns to normal.
Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, grants 5 stacks of Arrow's Assault, speeding up the recast time of the AST to 1.5s for the next 5 GCD attacks, and making cast times of those spells instant.

Ewer: Grants 1000mp over 15s. Additionally, If the target is a healer, grants 3 stacks of Ewer Overflowing, causing the next 3 attacks dealt to strike a second time for 100% of the spell's potency. Additional effects are not applied. This second strike cannot crit or Direct Hit.

Spear: 10% Physical damage, 15s. Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, all magic damage dealt by the AST is instead considered physical for the duration, allowing them to benefit from this card's effect

Spire: 10% Magic damage, 15s

A Note on Minor Arcana: Knaves, Lords, Ladies are 7 8 and 9 respectively. Due to not having a duration, these effects will last on the target until they are overwritten by another card, or KO removes them.

X of Staves: Increases the next 5 attacks dealt by the target ally by 60p. Additionally, increases the damage of the first attack dealt by target ally after this effect is applied, by 5 potency, multiplied by the face value of the arcana.

X of Rings: Deals 100p in counterattack damage each time the target ally is struck, up to 3 times. Additionally, deals an additional 5 potency, multiplied by the face value of the arcana, for the first counterattack only.

X of Knives: Causes the next 6 Autoattacks to deal a second strike for 50p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes.
if the concept of 'potency value not divisible by 5' is too much for the engine, make it 'first autoattack has bonus damage of '5 x face value'' like the rest

X of Cups: Causes the next 3 healer damage spells to cost half MP, and to strike a second time for 100p. Additional effects are not applied twice. Additionally, the first of these spells deals bonus damage equal to 5 potency, multiplied by the face value of the arcana

X of Crowns: Increases the next 5 instances of Magic damage dealt by 60p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes.
(see arrow if game can't handle non-5 values)

X of Irons: Increases the next 5 instances of Physical damage dealt by 60p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes. Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, the next 5 instances of magic damage are instead considered physical, allowing them to benefit from this card's effect

By making the cards have a unified effect of 'increases damage', balanced against one another in output, we can have them feel unique again with additional effects (like Bole's Mit, or Ewer's MP restore). We can also create effects that allow every role to have a card that is 'desired by X role', rather than the previous 'Balance or bust', or the current 'throw it all on the DPS'. Tanks and Healers would also get to have a card that is not just a case of 'well, I got a caster card and we've got two melee in this dungeon', but one specifically tailored to be 'this is the best on Healers, but casters can make some use of it as well'. This would also allow for, as mentioned previously, 'slightly unconventional' play with some card effects. For example, with the effect of Bole, 'reflect damage based on Max HP', you would place it on a Tank normally, as they have the highest Max HP. But you might also consider using it on a Healer or Caster for additional safety (eg they got a vuln stack) at the cost of a tiny amount of damage. By associating each card/suit with a specific role, I believe that the effect/role pairings would be very intuitive to learn (at least, easier to learn than having to relearn that Arrow/Ewer are now a pair, instead of Arrow/Spear). Bole protects, so it goes on Tanks. Spears are melee weapons, so it goes on the Melee. The Spire gets struck by magic lightning, so it goes on Casters, etc.

As a final side note, I've also thought about a new system for assisting in targeting allies for one-off ability uses without breaking your targeting on your current target. Essentially, like executing a macro that says /ac "action" <2>, but without actually having to make all those macros and bind them all. It would be something akin to more recent Monster Hunter games, with their Radial Menu of quickbinds for items, crafting, or emotes. Essentially, the way I'd envision it would be something like:



So in the example Arcana Gauge given, your burst window would be:

Malefic until burst time

Divination, Sleeve Draw (to empower the Minor Arcana into a Lady of it's suit, in this case, Lady of Cups)

Hold Minor Arcana button (this is GCD)
Move mouse/RightStick to the right (targets the SCH)
Release Minor Arcana button (Card is sent to SCH), let go of RightStick to go back to it's neutral position

Hold Major Arcana button (this is an OGCD weave)
Move mouse/Rightstick up/down (targets one of the tanks, whichever is MT atm)
Release Major Arcana button, release RightStick

Sleeve Draw if desired (this would turn the 6 of Irons into a Lady of Irons, in this case)

Hold Minor Arcana button (this is GCD)
Move mouse/RightStick down-left or down-right (targets the NIN/MNK)
Release Minor Arcana button (Card is sent to NIN/MNK), release RightStick

Hold Major Arcana button (this is an OGCD weave)
Move mouse/Rightstick down-left or down-right (targets the NIN/MNK again, as a Major and Minor effect can both be active at once on someone, but not two Major effects or two Minor effects)
Release Major Arcana button, release RightStick

Spam some more Malefics until Minor Arcana comes back up

That might look like a lot of stuff, but it's actually only two GCDs worth of actions listed there (the two uses of Minor Arcana). In practice, I'd expect it to feel pretty fast paced, but also very fluid, to throw out cards at such speeds. At first, it'd be a bit weird to get used to, but with practice, I can see people getting incredibly fast at executing actions within such a system. As mentioned before, Malefics can be thrown in to 'buy a GCD' to consider your next card move if needed, or to buy time for a Redraw if needed. Additionally, this system could theoretically work for a lot of other skills. Excog, Lustrate, Exaltation, EssentialDignity, DivineBenison, Tank shareables like Intervention or Nascent Flash, even something like DragonSight for DRG, or Verraise/Vercure on RDM and Rekindle on SMN, could benefit from such a system, making the act of 'throw this utility skill onto an ally' so much more fluid, and preventing (or at least reducing) those instances of 'untarget boss to heal, can't tab back to boss because it's too damn big'

Sorry that is a lot, but it's in tags so it's a bit prettier (I hope)

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

It is not a job, and you are not required to be good to enjoy the game, indeed.

That’s why vote dismiss & reporting under the pretext of ‘lethargic play’ exists.