I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Shurrikhan]

It is a conundrum. I think the disagreement there stems from SGE being more damage focused (as you point out) and about WHM being thrown under the bus.

How is Sage more "damage-focused" than anyone else? It has fewest considerations going into its rDPS of any healer, the greatest amount of free healing, and the second lowest rDPS (not that it matters when they're all neck-and-neck)...

[Renathras]

How is Sage more "damage-focused" than anyone else? It has fewest considerations going into its rDPS of any healer, the greatest amount of free healing, and the second lowest rDPS (not that it matters when they're all neck-and-neck)...

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

Though for the record, I didn't say "than anyone else", and I was agreeing with Aravell, so you'll have to ask her what she meant. I know that the general methodology is to attack Ren, but when Ren is just agreeing with someone else, you should be grilling them on what they meant.

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Avarell, can you answer Shurrikhan? She wants to know what you mean by SGE being "the dps healer".

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EDIT: Apologizes, that's it for me today.

You might need to play the job more to get used to it...I feel this is a lack of skill issue.

Not wanting to fight over it but:

1) Depends on content, 7-10% of healing isn't exactly something to throw away.
2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).
3) Agreed with "Might be true".
4) I said this, did I not? "though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons".
5) Casters don't need positioning in general. SGE has to move close to the boss for Plegma and has more dependence on angle for Pneuma if trying to hit more than one target. None of the other healers have this issue. WHM with Misery has a similar targeting the center of groups for AOE like Pneuma, but can do it from range, and no other healer has a line AOE outside of WHM in PvP.

Also "lack of skill issue" is a pretty pathetic cheap shot; I didn't say it was debilitating, nor significant. I do like how you guys will go out of your way to "attack Ren for saying something commonly held", even things others of you say, and attack me for saying it instead of attacking others you agree with. It's like if I cured cancer you'd be complaining I was putting doctors out of work.

I also like how you guys love proving me right:

Collectively, you've taken a question to Aravell, grilled me for it instead, and then attacked me as a player over it. Bravo. /golfclap

[Katish]

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

Though for the record, I didn't say "than anyone else", and I was agreeing with Aravell, so you'll have to ask her what she meant. I know that the general methodology is to attack Ren, but when Ren is just agreeing with someone else, you should be grilling them on what they meant.

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Avarell, can you answer Shurrikhan? She wants to know what you mean by SGE being "the dps healer".

1. Untrue, I have barely even applied Kardia and can still heal fine and even OUTHEAL the pure healer I'm with usually....
2. Debatable, 1 extra button doesn't make a kit more involved when you barely press that button as it is on cooldown
3. Might be true but see 2
4. This does not matter, SGE doesn't need it, see 1
5. What do you mean? All healers have to position themselves given they are casters...


You might need to play the job more to get used to it...I feel this is a lack of skill issue.

SGE is the easiest among the healers, imo even more so than the WHM when you understand how it works, it's less beginner friendly, sure but once you get it, you get it. SGE capitalizes on mitigation without sacrificing damage as most of its skills can be used in tandem (woven) and you really never have to play risky to get the most out of it...(if you play SGE, the goal is mitigation if the tank(s) need it), where with WHM you might need to be a little more risky, especially if your tank is new and you're running dungeons to get the most out of it.

WHM is a little more fun (again imo [healers are kind of meh atm]), because you are playing a little more riskier for that reward of damage, allowing your tank to dip to alarming levels of HP but then coming in with Benediction to basically negate it.

[Katish]

1) Depends on content, 7-10% of healing isn't exactly something to throw away.
2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).
3) Agreed with "Might be true".
4) I said this, did I not? "though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons".
5) Casters don't need positioning in general. SGE has to move close to the boss for Plegma and has more dependence on angle for Pneuma if trying to hit more than one target. None of the other healers have this issue. WHM with Misery has a similar targeting the center of groups for AOE like Pneuma, but can do it from range, and no other healer has a line AOE outside of WHM in PvP.

Also "lack of skill issue" is a pretty pathetic cheap shot; I didn't say it was debilitating, nor significant. I do like how you guys will go out of your way to "attack Ren for saying something commonly held", even things others of you say, and attack me for saying it instead of attacking others you agree with. It's like if I cured cancer you'd be complaining I was putting doctors out of work.

I also like how you guys love proving me right:

Collectively, you've taken a question to Aravell, grilled me for it instead, and then attacked me as a player over it. Bravo. /golfclap

[Sorry for the double post, but answering a comment, that's been edited seems weird]

First off, this is the forum so when you post your comment here expect it to be "OPEN" no matter who you are addressing...especially with making claims on something where everyone could have an idea for or argument against. You can't just "Well I think the planet is flat" and not expect some counter-arguments lel or even supporting comments.
Second I wasn't attacking you, learning your job is still a thing no matter where you are at in the game...when you argue something wrong you need only learn why it is wrong to learn. If you think everything is an attack...well you have other concerns. Not everyone is a god at playing every job, and that's just obvious...

Now:
1) This is all content, I still outheal the pure healers.
2) Pneuma is basically only for healing...I mean it's Macrocosmos for SGE lel with less potency given the mechanic you'd save it for.
4) I addressed all content, not just dungeons.
5) They do when mechanics are going off. Regardless Phlegma, should be saved for the two minute burst window (if you're doing that content) and at that time there's plenty of time to adjust (which you should have plenty of range).

[Amenara]

2) That's why I said "most involved". Consider the competition (WHM has no Plegma, Pneuma, or Toxicon and just uses Misery once per minute and Assize on CD; AST uses Star on CD, Macro in very specific situations, and otherwise is 2111 and nothing else; SCH is the only other competitor, and I specifically noted it).

I might be crazy but SGE and WHM have the same number of DPS spells. Assize is just Phlegma without charges. Pnuema is more of a healing CD than a damage spell. Toxicon is your movement spell if you can't get Dosis off. If I had to guess I'd say WHM uses Afflatus Misery more often than SGE uses Toxicon in fights.

[Supersnow845]

I might be crazy but SGE and WHM have the same number of DPS spells. Assize is just Phlegma without charges. Pnuema is more of a healing CD than a damage spell. Toxicon is your movement spell if you can't get Dosis off. If I had to guess I'd say WHM uses Afflatus Misery more often than SGE uses Toxicon in fights.

No you are exactly right, assize is just phlegma, pneuma barely counts as a damage spell considering if it was an oGCD weaved between dosis nothing would change other than it’s interaction with Zoe, toxicon is barely used (and lilys would be the equivalent but WHM gets way more lily’s)

[ForsakenRoe]

Was hoping for a link. Will have to see if I can find it in the healer forum (guessing it was posted there) later.

I don't see the point in posting a link to it, when I copypasted the relevant part and put it in the HB box in this thread, in the post you quoted (for the benefit of anyone else curious about how I'd change SGE). If I put a link to it now, all you'll find is the exact same text that I already posted

[Shurrikhan]

1) A lot of its healing efficiency over the course of a fight depends on damage uptime (Kardia).
2) It has arguably the most involved damage kit aside from SCH's going balls to the wall Dissipation Energy Drain optimizing.
3) It has the most damage actions of any of the healer Jobs.
4) It has weaker general spot healing (though this isn't as much an issue unless you're doing low level dungeons, but in that case, you're looking at (1)).
5) It's damage actually requires positioning where no other healer's does (Plegma being near-melee range, Pneuma requiring a facing and cast time, but mainly Plegma).

1. Which doesn't make it more damage-focused so much as simply having fewer conflicts with its damage dealing such that it can spend of the least focus on making the most (of its) damage opportunities. (It also has competitive healing even if we exclude Kardia; SGE's free-healing is flat-out overtuned.)

2. I said rDPS. And hitting da buttons on de CD is not even as open to nuance as Misery, let alone Cards (even the modern ones) or, as you mentioned, Dissipation+EDs.

3. If you count Pneuma among rDPS actions, you should also count Assize, Energy Drain, and Cards. Misery, Assize, Dia, Glare vs. Peuma, Phlegma, Dosis, EuDosis.

4. SCH oGCD direct heal: 600p. SGE oGCD direct: 700p + Miti or 600p. WHM AoE oGCD: 400p. SGE AoE oGCD: 400p. Its spot-healing is... totally fine.

5. Fair, but I'm already counting those when saying that I don't find SGE particularly any more "damage focused" than the others. Optimizing its rDPS is, for the most part, easier than on AST or SCH (with Disp) and, for anyone familiar with melee range existing, no harder than WHM.

Regardless, that much is largely minutia. My point is that I don't think the devs remotely succeeded in creating a "damage-focused" healer and calling SGE that feels pretty laughable to me.

Even calling it "more" damage-focused (which, again, I don't agree is true) seems an like an argument between brown and an indistinguishably browner brown -- more likely intended for distraction/dismissal than actually productivity in any topic but "Who should get more damage focus?" (and even then, only because of what it was supposed to do, not what it's actually done).

[Mithron]

WHM presses Glare. SGE presses Dosis. Dosis just drops an Embrace on pre-chosen target.

SGE is not more "damage focused" than WHM or any other healer.

[ForsakenRoe]

3. If you count Pneuma among rDPS actions, you should also count Assize, Energy Drain, and Cards. Misery, Assize, Dia, Glare vs. Peuma, Phlegma, Dosis, EuDosis.

On the one hand, you forgot Toxikon, but on the other hand, Ren's used Solace/Rapture as an example of a 'technically it's a damage action, because you have to use it to prep Misery' whenever he's compared rotational action count between now and SB WHM, so you can throw that on WHM's side too. IDK if that means you'd have to count Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis because 'thats how you generate Toxikon' though, I personally wouldn't because you don't 'need' to use Toxikon if you don't need to move for example, but you'd use Misery in literally every fight, even one that had zero damage to heal, because it's a gain to prep it put it in raidbuffs

There is nothing that makes SGE more 'damage focused' than any other healer except if you're looking only at it's potencies, and the whole 'it heals when you use damage skill' with Kardia. But as everyone's gone through a bajillion times, Kardia is, in it's current form, the absolute limpest implementation of the concept, and the stronger damage potencies on skills are not a factor because we don't look at personal DPS for healers when it comes to balance, we look at RDPS as with most other jobs. And in that regard, AST/SCH seem to end up at the top fairly often, despite AST's nuke being EIGHTY potency lower than SGE's (250 vs 330). I still remember how SCH was the 'damage focused healer', because the fairy's heals being unaffected by Cleric Stance let it stay in Cleric more. At this point, 'damage focused healer' is a hollow phrase with no real meaning, because if there were an actual 'damage focused healer', it'd have to also have the kit to be able to handle healing requirements, and so it'd become the 'it can do everything' healer and be 100% meta, and SE probably doesn't want that (if history tells us anything, they'd prefer said meta healer be SCH)