I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[IDontPetLalas]

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

I understand your point. However my point in of view is that the first design iteration of anything is rarely (if ever) optimal (and it can be argued that with SE they made AST worse with further releases). So just because something was designed , or has specific functions in its first design typically doesn't mean that it won't have changes in future, so nothing should be sacrosanct - especially since we only guess at some of the reasons for SE design decisions.

You haven't convinced me AST should only have 2 DPS abilities (note that I'm not constraining that to buttons)- I fully agree with ASkellington, it may end up with the least DPS skills but the current overused 2 is definitely lacking in engagement.

[Aravell]

You haven't convinced me AST should only have 2 DPS abilities (note that I'm not constraining that to buttons)- I fully agree with ASkellington, it may end up with the least DPS skills but the current overused 2 is definitely lacking in engagement.

Exactly where did I say they couldn't have more? Point it out for me, please. My point is only that AST never had many damage buttons, not that they can never have any more. I personally wouldn't mind if we returned wholesale to SB AST where they had most of their engagement come from the card system, I'd wager most AST mains from back then wouldn't mind the 2 DoTs and 1 filler either.

Honestly, for how much you guys jump on Ren for drawing his own conclusions and putting words in your mouths, you're also doing the same thing to me right now.

[Renathras]

Since all we have is anecdotes, how can you say with any certainty that it is prevalent?

Because I've seen it and a smattering of other people have seen it.

I suppose it depends on how narrowly people wish to define things, but saying it never happens means 0%. If it's even 10%, it's more than that. Then you get into that weird thing in statistics where, because of various interactions, a given % actually has much higher expression. Like I forget the exact number, but the odds of two people in a room having the same day of the year as birthday? You'd think the closer you get to 365, the closer it gets to 100% odds. Maybe half that (~180) should be pretty close to 100% chance. It's something like 30. If you have around 30 people in a room, you have strong odds that two have the same birthday, despite only having 10% of the people you need to canvass the whole year.

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

The people who get called out aren't the types to complain on internet forums. They're more likely to just suck it up or to quit the game and move on.

We know it does happen, and that is sufficient.

Also, did I say "being sub-optimal"? I thought I said something like "only healing and not casting any damage spells", which...while TECHNICALLY sub-optimal is akin to saying a person a million dollars in debt is "broke". While technically true, it's not the correct descriptor.

I've already answered most of this and rebutted it.

Not a good way to start a post but...

I'm only going to talk about two things here.

1) It may not work, but it's where we are. I don't think one is more breakable than the other. If they're willing to compromise on one, they would be on both. I think it's more on what that entails and how they do it, but I very much think they'd be more willing to bend on the "more healing" between the two. It may not be rational, it may not math out, and you may have good arguments to oppose that, but you have to ask yourself what are the devs thinking and how would they deal with this, and I don't think more damage is the solution they would reach. Not you, not me, them.

2) Holy being AOE isn't relevant, though - Misery is AOE and is used in the single target rotation. And if we look at non-healers, we see this a lot. Primal Rend and Confieteor combo are AOEs, RDM's post-melee spell combo are AOEs, SMN's Primals and Astral Flows and Enkindles are all AOEs. These are also all used in the single target rotation. They don't replace them in the AOE rotation. PLD and WAR use theirs whether single target or AOE, and likewise SMN and RDM. As for Assize - I'm fine with removing the healing from it. Gosh knows it's rarely used for that as it is. I guess these are cases of "I see what you're saying...but I disagree, and my disagreement is based on other things extant in the system already." I even explained to you why I thought Holy SHOULD be more powerful and more prevalent, something you rejected out of hand without consideration of my position at all. (That is, from my perspective, it seems like you didn't give me any consideration, you just decided you didn't care for that perspective or idea and just ...rejected it with no thought to how that would make me feel.)

How's that?

I am, for what it's worth, not trying to put words in your mouth. I genuinely see them as the same thing, hence the conflict. I see no reason to add more buttons when we could just make more efficient use of the ones we have. I feel the same way for heals, too, btw; which is why I often propose combining various buttons (some of which you disagree with).

Unsurprising he's not reading your post, given that he appears to be not reading quotes of his own posts either (or he is and just doesn't realize what he said in them)

Ah, Roe.

Another bad take, but...

I mean, considering I just read his post, your unsurprising seems to be surprising.

DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE'S POSITIONS is not what "didn't read" means.

Bit patronizing to ask such a thing, no?

I'm actually not sure it is. Or, rather, I'm not sure how to make the point to you, since I've tried a number of ways and either you just refuse to see it or I haven't stumbled on the one yet that will get through to you. I've said it plainly and you refuse to accept it, or even entertain it. I'll try again in the spirit of good faith, so let's see if you consider it this time:

Some people are good at healing and managing people's health bars but really not good at doing DPS rotations. So more healing requirements wouldn't phase them while more damage buttons/a damage rotation more complex than the present would.

The "low end of the skill floor" has no trouble pressing Medica over and over again.

Does that make sense to you or does it not?

And yet, one of your biggest gripes with what I've suggested for WHM is...

Adding an even more annoying version of a thing I already dislike; an upkeep DoT that is boring and has no useful or interesting interaction and would have to completely change the kit to be given one. I even showed you alternate ways to do things. For example, my Holy Might method would add SIX more non-Glare casts a minute (5.something, but you get the idea) with the Holy casts. But unlike a 12 sec Dia, that isn't ANNOYING.

I've proposed GCD heals nourishing the Blood Lily.

I've proposed Holy contributing to Misery.

I've proposed several different things making more Misery casts.

I've proposed making Assize a GCD.

I've made a lot of proposals that ARE NOT DOTS and give more other button presses while not adding obnoxious or unnecessary complexity and been consistently rejected. That does lead to frustration after a while, as you can surely imagine. Especially when I've made proposals to do the same thing but because they aren't a bloody DoT, it's not good enough because people have a damned love affair with DoTs for some reason; the single kind of damage spell I hate most in all of gaming.

I'm going to be nice, as I've done several times in the past, and believe he's misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Just so you know, I may not have seen the post. If I haven't replied to one directly, anyway, or if I replied to only one part of one. I do try to read everyone's posts, even long ones, though, but I don't always get to all the points in the if I don't have time.

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

Honestly, there's going to have to be some kind of record-skip correction at some point. Personally, I don't think "new thing" is always a good thing, or even good design in games, especially if everything in the old thing worked for those who enjoyed it (ask Old SMN fans). But I don't think the healing kits and encounter design being at odds with one another works. At some point, something is going to have to give...I mean, I guess it doesn't HAVE to, but I feel like it will happen eventually. Probably encounter design paired with some version of the 4 Healers Model, but who knows for sure? We'll find out when it happens.

I think the AST rework is going to be the big pointer to what direction they want to go, but we'll have to see both what it is AND how it works in the content to see where things go from there.

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it?

For the record - you do realize, since you speak of having read other people's posts - that I have said this exact thing before, right?

I shy away from proposing changes to AST because it's the one Healer Job I really don't like playing, and I'd rather leave it to the people that enjoy it and them leave one of the ones I play (literally any of the other three) for me to enjoy, and we can then all enjoy the game together happily...

...but I've said on more than one occasion if AST was the one, then I'd suck it up and be content with that. Not necessarily happy, but content. But that the change would require a severe reduction in its APM - to WHM levels - which basically means making the Cards GCDs (I even proposed a way this could happen, making the next Malific's damage boost by +100%, stacking up to 4 times or whatever, each time Draw and Play are used; in effect, this would make Cards work like Misery, just without an additional button...) and reducing the weaving.

But yes, that WOULD, provided it meets that requirement, satisfy the 4 Healer Model.

I've literally said so before.

I think AST is the least logical choice to do so, mind you - WHM has always more or less been what it is now and starts at level 1, SGE has ALWAYS been what it is now, so either one of those would be more logical; SCH makes the third spot as it branches from arguably the easiest Job in the game (ACN) meaning SCH/SMN both being easy would be a one-stop-shop for players wanting simple gameplay. AST makes the least logical sense as it would require a total rework of how it works to cut its APM down to WHM level, and would VERY likely alienate everyone that plays and enjoys the Job and pines for it to return to one of its older incarnations.

For that reason, I think it's the worst candidate.

But I have said if that was how it shook down, I'd live with it, and that it would satisfy the concept of the 4 Healers Model. I just think it would alienate far more people than leaving WHM or SGE alone, and would require a total rework of AST and "dumbing down" of it which would likely piss off far more people than leaving WHM untouched.

So yeah, I have literally suggested this before - I think...twice? Maybe three times? - I just thought it was the worst of the possible choices. But that isn't the same as discounting it, it's just saying that it's the least good option to go with.

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

The problem here is it wouldn't have "interesting cards and interactions". Or...not what you would likely consider such, anyway.

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

Hm...to be fair, wasn't this generally true of WHM as well? SB WHM had two DoTs (Aero1/2 [upgrade], Aero 3) and a filler (Stone or Holy). It didn't have Misery in SB at all (basically traded Aero 3 for Afflatus spells in the SB to ShB transition), and Assize was (and is) a oGCD just like Earthly Star.

The only healer this WASN'T true of in SB was SCH.

Exactly where did I say they couldn't have more? Point it out for me, please. My point is only that AST never had many damage buttons, not that they can never have any more. I personally wouldn't mind if we returned wholesale to SB AST where they had most of their engagement come from the card system, I'd wager most AST mains from back then wouldn't mind the 2 DoTs and 1 filler either.

Honestly, for how much you guys jump on Ren for drawing his own conclusions and putting words in your mouths, you're also doing the same thing to me right now.

...and this is why I think it should be WHM or SGE that stays the way it is. (Also, it's different seeing things from the other side, isn't it? "Happens to me all the time..." -Indiana Jones, when his father, Henry, remarked they were being shot at). I feel like AST players would MUCH rather have their SB gameplay back. I think most WHM players would NOT like to go back to WHM's SB state. When sober minded, I think most everyone CAN agree that WHM in SB was pretty bad, even if you don't outright agree with me that it was the single worst iteration of it in FFXIV's history. ShB and EW WHM work far better, and the irony is that with Solace/Rapture and Misery, WHM in EW is less Glarespammy than SB WHM was Stonespammy, as I proved in the "Helaers: Then and Now" thread. SB WHM was even LESS interactive than current WHM is in terms of its rotation.

[Maltothoris]

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

Actually Astros only had 1 dot in stormblood. THey just had Malefic 3 and combust 2. The other damage actions were earthly star and random minor arcana single target lord which was rng. It was heavensward where they actually had 4 dps buttons. Malefic 2, combust, combust 2 and aero. The thing that stormblood did was reduce their cast time to 1.5 for the card weaving.

[Shurrikhan]

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

By what warrant? You're using this as an excuse to limit what options for engagement are available to any and all players, not just that maybe-up-to-10% thereof, so what makes this theoretical risk worth that cost?

Putting aside the conflation between broader community issues and just what part would be impacted by differences in gameplay/combat design... Keeping jobs simple tends to make it all the clearer whether someone is performing well or poorly, because the elements that differentiate a player are just those that are obvious and thereby visible, and thereby more easily tracked.

"Poor play" is relative, after all, to either ability to meet normal visible thresholds or to maintain visible routines of generally preferable action (using one's skills, not standing in bad); gameplay's effect on how likely one is to be called out for it comes down only to tuning (a separate issue unless specifically asking for nerfs) and the how easy it is to eyeball whether one is playing at least halfway decently. And the current simplicity gives us quite nearly the most transparency ("ability for others to know with high reliability, even with just minimal/peripheral effort, that/when you're screwing up") we've ever had.

A small increase to depth available to healers in their downtime does not increase the 'risk' of being 'found out' for being bad -- quite the opposite.

But more importantly, even if that risk were increased instead, why should that potential 'risk' to a subsection of a subsection of players happening upon a rare circumstance... outweigh any and all potential benefits of that added ceiling?

[Aravell]

Hm...to be fair, wasn't this generally true of WHM as well? SB WHM had two DoTs (Aero1/2 [upgrade], Aero 3) and a filler (Stone or Holy). It didn't have Misery in SB at all (basically traded Aero 3 for Afflatus spells in the SB to ShB transition), and Assize was (and is) a oGCD just like Earthly Star.

The only healer this WASN'T true of in SB was SCH.

A lot of people who joined in ShB have been repeating certain phrases until it kind of spread out all over the role at this point. Having lived through that era of going into ShB, the exact arguments were:
WHM: "Give us back our nature spells and Aero III"
SCH: "Give us back our damage spells and Energy Drain"
AST: "Give us back our card effects and associated systems"

Only SCH mains specifically mentioned damage spells back then. I don't think any AST main in SB complained about the reduction in dps spells. In fact, everyone used to call the gutting of dps spells "a reduction to the AST dps rotation". WHM mains did complain about losing Aero III though.

Actually Astros only had 1 dot in stormblood. THey just had Malefic 3 and combust 2. The other damage actions were earthly star and random minor arcana single target lord which was rng. It was heavensward where they actually had 4 dps buttons. Malefic 2, combust, combust 2 and aero. The thing that stormblood did was reduce their cast time to 1.5 for the card weaving.

Did SB combine the single target DoTs? I don't clearly remember that part, I just remembered it was Combust II and assumed they had 2 DoTs, 1 casted and 1 instant.

The problem here is it wouldn't have "interesting cards and interactions". Or...not what you would likely consider such, anyway.

What I want is different from what I'm fine with. I've said before that I'd be satisfied if they reverted AST and SCH back to the SB playstyle, though I'd prefer a playstyle more like HW SMN myself, but I can see that not everyone wants or enjoys something so convoluted. SB, however, is a decent baseline which most can accept to be a good compromise between HW and ShB.

[Maltothoris]

Did SB combine the single target DoTs? I don't clearly remember that part, I just remembered it was Combust II and assumed they had 2 DoTs, 1 casted and 1 instant.

Ye Stromblood combined all the single target dots for the healer classes. For whm they just had aero which upgraded to aero 2, and still had aero 3 for aoe dots. SCH had bio upgraded to bio 3 while still keeping miasma and then getting miasma 2 as an aoe dot since they lacked an aoe and they had nerfed bane heavily into the ground. Astro had combust upgraded into combust 2 and lacked an aoe dot.

[Sebazy]

This is REALLY anecdotal stuff.

And this is precisely why you are viewed as a complete joke.,

When was the last time you actually backed up your various overly long diatribes with actual facts?

Was it actually the 1T1H2DPS thread that you got completely wrong but still tried to double down on? That certainly worked out well didn't it.

You have absolutely *ZERO* right to hand wave off other peoples views as anecdotal given that's *ALL YOU EVER DO YOURSELF*

One day you'll realise, I only hope I'm there to see it.

[Supersnow845]

And this is precisely why you are viewed as a complete joke.,

When was the last time you actually backed up your various overly long diatribes with actual facts?

Was it actually the 1T1H2DPS thread that you got completely wrong but still tried to double down on? That certainly worked out well didn't it.

You have absolutely *ZERO* right to hand wave off other peoples views as anecdotal given that's *ALL YOU EVER DO YOURSELF*

One day you'll realise, I only hope I'm there to see it.

I’ve worse I’ve had him throw survey evidence in the trash I’ve provided because he says since it’s outdated then in the same sentence attempt to counter said evidence with anecdotes and act like it’s a valid equivalent refutal

[Zeastria]

Healer gameplay should revolve around HEALING, not DPSING.
Asking healers to be more like dps..is like asking healers to become DPS..
Why play healer..when in truth you wanna dps ?.


Instead:
Let healers use their whole HEALER toolkit ! LET US USE OUR HEALS!!
I dont want to press x more meaningless/worthless dps buttons..

Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

- More dmg during fights ( dot dmg/dispel-mech)
- More random unavoidable dmg..
- Remove self-heal/ress from other roles..

Instead of putting all that energy into asking for x more dps button.
How about fighting to get actually healer gameplay into picture instead!
People who enjoy healing.. do so because they enjoy the healing aspect of it..
not the **** 3 dps buttons we have!..


I said my piece..
not gonna reply anyone
or argue about it.