For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

Ffs...

<< Can we please allow dungeons a range of difficulties (as already seen in boss-fights across Leveling, Normal, Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate)?

Yes, we'll call them Criterion. Didn't I just say this?

>> No! Not all content should be for everyone! But here, let me suggest an analog of... my 4 Healer Model. In it, we'll give dungeons... multiple difficulties!

Firstly, that's not an analogue. Ironically, the analogue for the 4 Healer Model would be what you're asking for - that we have "a range of difficulties across different dungeons". The problem is you can't very well have a roulette that works that way. Imagine if the Trial roulette could give you any normal, Hard, or Extreme trial in the game, and also could give you a normal or Savage version of any 8 man. That's what you'd be asking for. I'm saying to have all the difficulties, but have separate roulettes fr them, so to speak.

The other thing is that healer Jobs aren't a roulette. You don't que up and then get pooped out into an instance in one chosen by RNG.

You've seen his counters already, so you know full well what he meant -- that you had yet to argue convincingly.

I'M NOT A MIND READER LIKE YOU ARE. I don't tell people what they are thinking. I read the words they post. He could have said something like "I've seen your arguments, but I disagree with them." Which was, btw, the thing I said in my reply he could have said (but didn't). If someone says "You gave NO argument!", I shouldn't be attacked for thinking the person is insisting I have no argument. Besides which, I DID argue it convincingly, you guys just disagree with it because you don't WANT it because you think any change I propose makes things easier and is therefore disallowed - even when, as I argued, it does not. In the worst possible analysis, what I proposed does the thing you guys say you always want, lowers skill floor and raises skill ceiling.

But, AGAIN, I'm not going to keep arguing such a minor point for something I don't even care that much about with brick walls.

Calling that "belittling" while assuming that only an idiot could fail to be thus convinced,

Its belittling because I DID present arguments, and without even arguing against them, much less paying attention to my own counter-arguments, he said I presented NONE. Again, I'm not a mind reader like you are/claim to be.

These have little to nothing to do with each other...

Some healers more GCD based, some more oGCD based. Yes, it's part of the concept.

Did you not want increased healing requirements?

Different concepts/different arguments. Roe's argument here is two relatively minor changes to WHM that she thinks would increase the dps complexity to make it less boring. No part of that argument is talking about overall encounter design reworks. This is another example of you trying to find anything to browbeat me over. We're talking about her idea, not mine. I was just pointing out WHM already has all the skills in place to do this without needing any additions. Moreover, there's no reason FOR them. "Add banish as a new button for...no good reason, since we already have a button we could use for this exact purpose instead". I don't think that's her intent, which is why I made the suggestion for how we could do it in a streamlined way.

I've already made SEVERAL proposals myself for healer Job changes. We're not discussing those, so you can't bring up "I thought you wanted...!" since we're not talking about what I wanted, now are we? We're talking about someone else's proposal, and me offering suggestions to it.

For now, don't show others status effects on your Focus Target status effects

Is there actually a way to do this? When I was messing with the HUD trying to find it, I found a checkbox, but it got rid of others' effects on BOTH bars (target and focus) at the same time. I looked to see if there was an option for only the one or the other, but I don't remember being able to find it, or it was only for the main target bar and not focus, I forget. I DID look at it before trying to find a solution there but couldn't locate one.

The default UI was fine even for maintaining, say, some 10 DoTs across 5 targets on HW Bard (no-stance over the gather, WM, IJ, AoE with constant RoD resets).

"Press X to Doubt..."

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Okay, question: Why do we need to add Banish?

That is, why do we need a new and separate button for it? We already have a lot of pointless buttons, so why do we need one more? Why do we need to consolidate existing redundancy to add...new redundancy? Your Banish proposal isn't some exciting button. It's not something like Continuation and it doesn't seem to have any connection to anything other than to be a pseudo-"-2" or "-3".

One of my big complaints about button bloat is having buttons that don't do anything to deserve existing. For the flack they're given, Cure 2, Medica 2, and Cure 3 all have a point. Cure 2 and Cure 3 are if you need sustained bomb healing, and Medica 2 if you need sustained party healing but can't stack tight enough for Cure 3. Medica 1 USED to make sense for this as a spamable augment to Medica 2, except Cure 3's radius has been extended so Medica 1's isn't much better anymore (Cure 3 used to have like a 6, then 8y, range vs Medica's 15), and Medica's MP cost was ballooned so that it's barely cheaper than Medica 2. People say Cure 1 is redundant, but at least it has an MP efficiency and faster cast time over Cure 2. Medica 1 does not have that over its counterpart.

So let's look at what you're suggesting we add:

A GCD button with a CD that does damage.

So it's not like a combo button, it has no interaction with any other system in the kit, we already have another damage button besides Glare that we have, which is an uninspired oGCD never used for the "intended purpose" (of healing or spike MP generation), instead being used essentially on CD for damage (and MP maintenance), which is what you're asking for an ability to do. Only thing it would need is a CD and potency adjustment. I can't think of a good reason not to do this. Especially since I've already been arguing that Assize should be a GCD for a while now as it being an oGCD brings nothing to the table other than making Glarespam worse than it is since it doesn't contribute to breaking it up. Assize isn't used like a healer oGCD (for healing or mitigation), and is more akin to something like Orogeny, which is BORing.

...kind of odd me being the one pointing out something being boring, for once, but here we are...

What you're asking for is closer to something like Sonic Break on GNB or Goring Blade on PLD, two abilities players are constantly saying "Why do we even have these?" because of how little they actually bring to the Jobs and their rotations. What you're asking for is just worse since it becomes even more obnoxious and doesn't do anything interesting. Say what you will of Assize, but at least it would be mildly interesting as an ability to hit more often since it...does other things besides "just damage, but a different button". Which is why I even suggested it in the first place. Myself. In my own WHM proposal.

I see no reason adding Banish as an ability is actually...needed, much less useful.

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As to your question about SMN:

Note that Emerald, Ruby, and Topaz abilities aren't additional buttons (though if you mean they could have Ruin 3 convert into abilities instead of having a separate Gemshine - something it already does for Bahamut/Phoenix - I'd agree; been thinking a while that they could remove Gemshine and Precious Brilliance and just have those convert), they're single buttons. And they're actually spamable while they're available. And they actually have different cast times and recast times. Titan's 1-2 sets feel a little slower and more cumbersome than Garuda's 1-1-1-1 quick strikes. So they actually DO seem different and aren't just "hit on CD once per 15 seconds". Each one changes your "rotation" while it's up, then you move on to the next one, without additional button bloat besides Gemshine/PB themselves (which, again, they could entirely remove and just fold into Ruin 3/Tri-Disaster and nothing of particular value would be lost, imo.

Ignore the part where...

Wait, SO I'M CLEAR, are you arguing that the Healer damage kits right now ARE diverse and interesting? I want to make sure I'm not seeing things, because you're arguing against me parroting the general line that ALL OF YOU here say that they're basically all identical copy-pasta. And you're arguing against me, saying that they're different. So I want to make sure that's your actual intent...

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1. You mean what the difference is? I'm not sure I understand the question.

2. Yeah, it could be AST having Nocturnal stance. The specifics don't matter TOO much, I'm more thinking in terms of what is the least disruptive to existing players. For example, if SE decided they wanted a fourth Support role, it would make sense to take the Jobs that are already closest to Support - something like RDM gets Vermedica and Verprotect/Vershell (it already kinda has that with Magick Barrier) instead of saying "So we're going to make BLM the new Support role", which would require a complete rework of the Job, its abilities, and its playstyle.

...since this example could get us lost in the weeds, I'm not proposing THAT, I'm more just trying to explain "If we already have something KINDA leaning in a direction that we want to go, it makes sense to use that instead of one of the things that isn't at all like that and would require a complete rework instead."

3. Not sure which thing you're referring to here. "Not really, no" or "Every Job..." or "That's...questionable"? I'm also not sure that the goal should be "make things that appeal to DPS players", especially when it comes to entire other roles. Take Tanking. GNB was pretty much unofficially (and maybe officially) made to appeal to DPS players. But they didn't take the three existing Tanks and ALSO convert them to doing so. The Devs were satisfied with just GNB filling that niche of "the Tank for DPS players when they want to Tank". Note that my own "4 Healers Model" proposal already satisfies this, anyway, between SCH being a "DoT Mage" and SGE being a "Caster with heals" - which, frankly, is what I THOUGHT it was going to be when Yoshi P first announced it.

4. We do get this sometimes - though arguably less than we could. for example, Ruin to Broil. They could do it A LOT MORE, like Protect to Proshell to Plenary Indulgence (one I always shill for) or Divine Seal into Temperance. The Devs have this weird thing they do with Healers where they remove abilities, then add them back later with extra effects and a new name/animation for a high level ability...and for some reason, they don't want to just keep the low level one in. For example, WHM could get Divine Seal at level 40/45 and then it upgrade to Temperance at level 80 adding the party mitigation. We see this more frequently with other Jobs, like PLD having Spirits Within upgrade to Expaciation or SMN's Outburst upgrading to Tri-Disaster. Or WAR which essentially has its core rotation done at level 50 and after that, it's just abilities upgrading and gaining new or slightly additional secondary effects. They don't seem to feel the need to remove Spirits Within for an expansion before adding Expadiation as a capstone an expansion later. So I don't get why they have some allergic recoil from doing this with Healers.

5. I do agree there are issues with continued growth, though I contend that's more related to encounter design. Between "the dance" and the 2 min metal, the Devs have REALLY "painted themselves into a corner", as Sebezy accurately says. They really need to address that issue.

6. Then your proposal is more limited than mine, as I'd probably include SCH in that just with a less rigid rotation and a bit more free flowing. But yes, SGE was basically billed as the GNB for Healers, the DPS-appealing Job of the Healer role. And there's no reason not to make it that other than...well...I honestly can't think of any...