For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

With a few small accommodations... yeah, kinda.

Mhm.

Because it's not my argument.

My argument is some people like the playstyle that exists.

My argument is that I believe it's bad practice to remove playstyles that exist.
See: SMN, MCH, AST, need I go on?

YOUR argument has to be why that cannot be allowed. Moreover, I'm not arguing for a change (well, I'm arguing for 3 changes, but you agree with those parts...). You're the one arguing for a complete change. Ceteris paribus, status quo is what is maintained. Therefore, the onus is on you, not I, to argue conclusively your position and in a way that precludes any alternatives.

You have yet to give a compelling argument for why one Healer Job cannot remain the same.

WHM has its roots in CNJ in this game.

Except it doesn't. Chicken or the egg. It's the other way around.

Conjury has its roots in White Magic in this game. White Magic does not have its roots in Conjury. It's origin hasn't been explicitly revealed, but it was probably somewhat akin to Somanoutics (SGE):

"White magic, the arcane art of succor, was conceived eras past that the world might know comfort. Alas, man began perverting its powers for self-gain, and by his wickedness brought about the Sixth Umbral catastrophe. Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals."

It was conceived to heal and comfort. It was neither conceived by nor from the Elementals, nor was its origin connected to elemental magics. It is in the midst of a revival via the Elementals, hence Conjury, but White Magic ITSELF is not elemental in nature.

CNJ was invented by the Elementals as a partial allowance for mortals to be allowed to use some forms of White Magic after it was outlawed by both mortals and the Elementals. So are the Padjali White Mages, though they're actually biologically engineered (for lack of a better term) by the Elementals to be allowed to do so. You do have people asking for it back, but you also have people asking for Energy Drain to be decoupled from Aetherflow.

They wanted all the cards to have Balance equivalent effects. The got them having Balance identical effects as a result.

You cast Esuna and don't want healing...okay? Not relevant. There are plenty of times the Tank is at 100% health. Do you get mad that Kardia overheals them? If you use a HoT on someone, do you get mad if it overheals them? Do you get mad if you use a mitigation and it wasn't necessary for the party to survive? I don't think you personally getting annoyed at someone getting all of 10k health when you Esuna them (pretty much every debuff in the game people get these days comes from an attack, meaning by definition they will not be at 100% health) is a good reason not to do it. It's also a REALLY weird heal to die on. "As a healer, I don't want my ability to heal people!" We could, of course, just remove Esuna from the game. That would achieve the same effect. But I would THINK you'd be more opposed to that...I can't be sure since some of you guys have really counterintuitive views on some things...

I do think Deploy as more of SCH's identity would be neat. That said, Broil or Art spreading DoTs isn't "dumb". "only once or twice" is still breaking up the one button spam. I swear, you guys will argue against me on literally anything. While saying you hate one button spam, most of you here will argue against any proposal I make that actually reduces it. It's ridiculous.

Energy Drain being decoupled... is what some people want.

Completely irrelevant, as we could say this about LITERALLY anything.

WHM to have elemental spells back?
SCH to have DoTs back?
Healers to have damage rotations?

...are what some people want. That's literally true of literally everything. There's probably not a single thing that would garner 100% support. EVERYthing will be a thing that some people want. This is an irrelevant argument. You "aren't going to satisfy everyone" with ANY change. My idea is still the best one since it simultaneously preserves some of what people like about it (skill expression through reducing healing to optimize damage), preserves the reason people say they need it (something to spend AF on, since we now have introduced other AF dumps), and does so while meeting the request of the many that it be decoupled since SCH has neat AF abilities that people feel locked out of using. Imagine if AST could cast Earthly Star OR Cards, but not both. Where you could only use one or the other. But maybe you like both. Maybe you think both are part of AST's identity. TOO BAD! They share a resource and you get one or the other, not both. Wouldn't that suck? Yes. Yes that would suck.

"There's no reason to remove it." - I literally gave you the reason to remove it. Two reasons, in fact. You can say "I don't agree with your reasons for removing it", but you can't say "There's no reason to remove it". The latter is a lie. You should stop lying. It doesn't help your case.

"Making Dia stack adds NO skill expression." - Making Dia stack adds skill expression. Man! It's a wonderful world when I can just SAY THINGS and them be true and negate your argument. I don't need to give reasons, type out long posts, I can just SAY IT and it's true, right? Right? That's how this works? I can ignore anything you say by just SAYING it's not true and I'm automatically right? Wow, that's awesome!

"Does SAM's 60s DoT..." - SAM's DoT isn't a 30 sec DoT that can stack. Therefore, this is irrelevant. Does NIN or WAR's ability to stack their self-buff to 60 sec NOT add skill expression? Yes. Yes it does. Does it add A LOT? Not really. But does it add SOME? Yes. Yes it does add skill expression. DIA procing Misery or Assize would be laughably OP. And also dumb. That's a really dumb suggestion.

[/u]Moving all the heals onto the GCD fixes everything.[/u] It makes healing more engaging. It fixes healers in solo content. It fixes the fact we have too many heals. It fixes the fact that the healers are too similar. It fixes the fact that some heals are on too short of a cool down. It fixes the fact that encounter design is trash and our kit doesn't reflect it. It makes all healers feel different and MUCH BETTER because everything is on the GCD having a higher skill expression and eliminating one-button spam.

Man, I've been doing this wrong all this time! Just SAYING things are true and not giving reasons or discussion to support that makes debating SO much easier!

.

Also: You call a lot of things dumb, btw.

Maybe you're the one with dumb ideas.

Or, maybe, we should not be throwing around calling each other's ideas dumb. How about we try that instead?

In isolation, perhaps, but...[this whole post]

Ieeeeheee...agree...with Shurrikhan. Okay, I still disagree on the stacking DoT thing, but...never mind that! Don't want to ruin the moment.

And with that, I'm completely done with you.

Love you, too, Sebazy.

You're so desperate for validation for someone to agree with your thinly veiled hatred of raiders and challenging content

That's some impressive psychoanalysis there.

Impressively wrong, mind you. But when someone does something epically bad, it can still be impressive. It's like Fable - whether Hero or Villain, the Guild only cares that you make a mark on the world. Your take there is like a massive train wreck; terribly bad, but still impressive in its sheer badness.

Break down the actual comment:

Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is bad.
No other [role]needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna.
Endgame content has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but leveling roulette (and other content) does not, meaning healing is actually (gasp!) engaging in them, especially before you get your end-game oGCD kit.
Pressing three buttons in sequence is hardly better than pressing one button.

...that last being something even you agree with:

A 1-2-3 combo by itself isn't the solution here. It's just bloat and doesn't break up the current tedium.

While it's nice to get validation, I'm not "desperate" for it. I said I 100% agree...with a position...that I've agreed with for a long time.

I've said MYSELF time and again that Healers (or at least SOME Healers) shouldn't have a DPS rotation, that this is specifically because they have to react to other player mistakes and keep an eye on party health, that not all content in the game devalues healing, and that a 1-2-3 rotation doesn't fix the problem of bored players anyway.

Like, you're saying you're "done with me" for me agreeing WITH MY OWN POSITION.

The hell is wrong with you?

EDIT2:

Increasing incoming damage to the point where it actually taxes our existing kits isn't viable in mainstream content.

People aren't arguing this for "mainstream content". They're arguing this for Savage and Ultimates.

It's going to take so much more than the above to freshen up the current state of endgame healing IMO:

And...I agree?

I've said for a long time now that damage needs to be more continuous - and not FATAL; more continuous but smaller so that it can be healed through but requires consistent healing upkeep and can't be met by 1 or 2 oGCDs used every 30-45 sec or so. I've also said that bosses should continue to attack while casting, that autoattacks should actually be threatening, etc.

I've said all this myself. You've agreed with me on all this as we both hold that position.

For Dungeons, we disagree, since I draw a line at making mainstream content cater to people who already have content that caters to them (Savage, Ultimate, and now also Criterion Savage), though I do think that other things happening (CC, adds, debuffs we can Esuna that aren't just "you messed up on the 2nd boss of Manalis" checks). We also used to have MP management and lack of oGCD heals so that we actually had to engage with our GCD kit.

"casual endgame" isn't a dumpster fire. It actually seems to be fine. The issue right now is midcore endgame. As in...there isn't any.

Expert Roulette isn't what needs fixing "for player retention". We need some kind of content between MSQ and Extreme difficulty and we don't have one.

Consider a theoretical WHM styled after what BLU heals with, which gets:

Cure1, 500p/500mp cost, at 30 becomes Cure2/700p/500mp, at 86 becomes 800p
Medica1, 250p AOE/1000mp, becomes 400p at 45
Medica 2, 500p AOE/100p Regen on all allies for 15s, 60s CD
Stoneskin, 250p AOE shield, 800mp
Afflatus Rapture, 1000p AOE heal, 3000mp cost
Assize, 400p shortrange AOE, removes one debuff, 700mp

Healing covered,

Not really. The modern game is based on mitigation a ton. And non-BLU parties don't have everyone with Diamondback to cover that, nor would Stoneskin in this treatment solve that problem. BLU healing is also rather UNresponsive to mistakes, which is why it's considered (a) side content and (b) generally something more hardcore people do during downtime.

But I was more talking about its damage kit, which is ROUGHLY similar to the 4 green icon Jobs we have. That's what I found ironic.

I never said a 123 rotation was the only option, but it is an absolutely terrible option that needs to be squelched from the discussion with prejudice.

Mostly agreed. I do think there could be one specific way to make it work, but I don't think people want that. And I don't think it would be amazing gameplay, it just wouldn't be completely terrible. But I think most proposals are, indeed, the terrible forms.