For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Sebazy]

And to clarify since certain individuals will try to run away with a false narrative:

A 1-2-3 combo by itself isn't the solution here. It's just bloat and doesn't break up the current tedium. Trying to push a narrative that this is the only solution on the table is flat out disingenuous.

Increasing incoming damage to the point where it actually taxes our existing kits isn't viable in mainstream content. Some time back I debunked some claims about this demonstrating just how much healing a WHM can dish out with Medica II and Lilies alone. Spoiler, it's a LOT, you'd need to have old school Savage HPS checks in dungeons and 24 mans. The ultimate irony is that I'd absolutely love for that to happen. I can promise you without a doubt that you wouldn't though. Think for a moment why so many of the healers here that are written off as 'dps mains' view Godka as one of the best Savage turns this game as ever had. Spoiler, it wasn't because it was a DPS centric fight for us.

It's going to take so much more than the above to freshen up the current state of endgame healing IMO:

We need faster paced bosses that don't routinely sit there for upwards of 30 seconds channeling casts and doing literally zero damage. Here's looking at you Rubicante.

We need more damage being thrown at the tank at all times coupled with the return of both auto attack crits and non telegraphed mini tank busters so that we have to pay attention to the tanks HP bars all the time, not just at key specific moments.

The recipe for dungeons needs a radical fresh pair of eyes. Give us more mid fight adds, give us funky agro, give us mobs that need to be CC'd, give us stuff to actually cleanse. We've had most of these things at various stages of the game's life in the past. Why have they all been forgotten now?

Healer synergy with DPS needs a ground up rethink, why are our buffing options so bland and limited now? Loads of healers don't want to sit there being a Poundland DPS job all day, why do we have 4 jobs and not a single one of them can spend their GCDs buffing the group? Oh right now I remember why...

Sure, leveling roulette can be fun, but that doesn't change what a dumpster fire the casual endgame has turned into. It needs to be addressed to help ease player retention.

[ForsakenRoe]

We need more damage being thrown at the tank at all times coupled with the return of both auto attack crits and non telegraphed mini tank busters so that we have to pay attention to the tanks HP bars all the time, not just at key specific moments.

Just this change alone would be a massive start. Example, if we have a boss with a mini tankbuster that happens every 15-20s ish, that forces the tank to use their 25s on it (downtime helps smooth out the gap). Meaning that said tank no longer has a 25s to use on every damn TB. GNBs can get 'almost-literally Nebula' from their 25s if they time it right, because it's 15%+15%. 28ish% mitigation on any given tankbuster or raidwide, and then it ALSO has the Excog effect on top! Sheltron's at 15%+15% now too, and also heals for 1000p over 12s. For comparison, that's the total healing from Medica 2. Being able to just throw 'Medica 2' on yourself every 25ish seconds (autoattack means the timer's a bit weird) is just obscene self-sustain. Could have been 500p over 12s and part of me would say 'wow that's quite a lot of healing for a non-healer'. And then of course, Warrior, SE's favorite child, gets to have 1200p every 25s via Bloodwhetting, plus 400p of shield, plus 1200 from Equilibrium on a 60s CD, plus 1500 via the HOT on Equilibrium, plus 20% effectively when you pop Thrill of Battle and both your Current/Max HP go up (but when the Max HP wears off, the current remains)

Loads of healers don't want to sit there being a Poundland DPS job all day

Poundland deserves better than this comparison /s

A bit ironic, that.

The "so much better than healers" gameplay is...basically what the Healer Jobs are right now, just the heals are GCDs.

Kinda supports what I said - remove all oGCD heals from the game. The abilities can exist, just they have to be GCDs. That would change how people view this in a heartbeat.

I don't see the irony you are, I see 'BLU is able to function as a healer, with just a core kit of 7ish GCD healing-related skills. The rest of the kit can be damage, utility, emotes, whatever.' This just puts the lie to the current healer design, and the additions we got in EW for some of them. Why did we need Lilybell or Macrocosmos, when we can already solve all the healing required with the kit we already have? Why add Aquaveil or Exaltation when the tanks never seem to take enough damage for them to actually feel 'needed'?

Consider a theoretical WHM styled after what BLU heals with, which gets:

Cure1, 500p/500mp cost, at 30 becomes Cure2/700p/500mp, at 86 becomes 800p
Medica1, 250p AOE/1000mp, becomes Medica2/400p/1000mp at 45
Cure3, 500p AOE/100p Regen on all allies for 15s, 60s CD
Stoneskin, 250p AOE shield, 800mp
Salvation, 1000p AOE heal, 3000mp cost
Absolution, 400p shortrange AOE, removes one debuff, 700mp

Healing covered, now you've got like 18 spaces to add interesting things to the class, instead of having three separate versions of Cure 2, and two versions of Medica 1

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

I never said a 123 rotation was the only option, but it is an absolutely terrible option that needs to be squelched from the discussion with prejudice.

[Sebazy]

I never said a 123 rotation was the only option, but it is an absolutely terrible option that needs to be squelched from the discussion with prejudice.

And yet you're the only one that's repeatedly dragged a 123 rotation into the discussion over the last few days. Why is that?

There are far more interesting ways to engage healers: buffs and augments, procs, charges, positionals, cleaves etcetc the list goes on. The Lily system's recent success clearly demonstrates that adding a bit of short CD interkit synergy is far more interesting than just throwing us more ungabunga potency on a 2 minute cooldown.

[Renathras]

With a few small accommodations... yeah, kinda.

Mhm.

Because it's not my argument.

My argument is some people like the playstyle that exists.

My argument is that I believe it's bad practice to remove playstyles that exist.
See: SMN, MCH, AST, need I go on?

YOUR argument has to be why that cannot be allowed. Moreover, I'm not arguing for a change (well, I'm arguing for 3 changes, but you agree with those parts...). You're the one arguing for a complete change. Ceteris paribus, status quo is what is maintained. Therefore, the onus is on you, not I, to argue conclusively your position and in a way that precludes any alternatives.

You have yet to give a compelling argument for why one Healer Job cannot remain the same.

WHM has its roots in CNJ in this game.

Except it doesn't. Chicken or the egg. It's the other way around.

Conjury has its roots in White Magic in this game. White Magic does not have its roots in Conjury. It's origin hasn't been explicitly revealed, but it was probably somewhat akin to Somanoutics (SGE):

"White magic, the arcane art of succor, was conceived eras past that the world might know comfort. Alas, man began perverting its powers for self-gain, and by his wickedness brought about the Sixth Umbral catastrophe. Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals."

It was conceived to heal and comfort. It was neither conceived by nor from the Elementals, nor was its origin connected to elemental magics. It is in the midst of a revival via the Elementals, hence Conjury, but White Magic ITSELF is not elemental in nature.

CNJ was invented by the Elementals as a partial allowance for mortals to be allowed to use some forms of White Magic after it was outlawed by both mortals and the Elementals. So are the Padjali White Mages, though they're actually biologically engineered (for lack of a better term) by the Elementals to be allowed to do so. You do have people asking for it back, but you also have people asking for Energy Drain to be decoupled from Aetherflow.

They wanted all the cards to have Balance equivalent effects. The got them having Balance identical effects as a result.

You cast Esuna and don't want healing...okay? Not relevant. There are plenty of times the Tank is at 100% health. Do you get mad that Kardia overheals them? If you use a HoT on someone, do you get mad if it overheals them? Do you get mad if you use a mitigation and it wasn't necessary for the party to survive? I don't think you personally getting annoyed at someone getting all of 10k health when you Esuna them (pretty much every debuff in the game people get these days comes from an attack, meaning by definition they will not be at 100% health) is a good reason not to do it. It's also a REALLY weird heal to die on. "As a healer, I don't want my ability to heal people!" We could, of course, just remove Esuna from the game. That would achieve the same effect. But I would THINK you'd be more opposed to that...I can't be sure since some of you guys have really counterintuitive views on some things...

I do think Deploy as more of SCH's identity would be neat. That said, Broil or Art spreading DoTs isn't "dumb". "only once or twice" is still breaking up the one button spam. I swear, you guys will argue against me on literally anything. While saying you hate one button spam, most of you here will argue against any proposal I make that actually reduces it. It's ridiculous.

Energy Drain being decoupled... is what some people want.

Completely irrelevant, as we could say this about LITERALLY anything.

WHM to have elemental spells back?
SCH to have DoTs back?
Healers to have damage rotations?

...are what some people want. That's literally true of literally everything. There's probably not a single thing that would garner 100% support. EVERYthing will be a thing that some people want. This is an irrelevant argument. You "aren't going to satisfy everyone" with ANY change. My idea is still the best one since it simultaneously preserves some of what people like about it (skill expression through reducing healing to optimize damage), preserves the reason people say they need it (something to spend AF on, since we now have introduced other AF dumps), and does so while meeting the request of the many that it be decoupled since SCH has neat AF abilities that people feel locked out of using. Imagine if AST could cast Earthly Star OR Cards, but not both. Where you could only use one or the other. But maybe you like both. Maybe you think both are part of AST's identity. TOO BAD! They share a resource and you get one or the other, not both. Wouldn't that suck? Yes. Yes that would suck.

"There's no reason to remove it." - I literally gave you the reason to remove it. Two reasons, in fact. You can say "I don't agree with your reasons for removing it", but you can't say "There's no reason to remove it". The latter is a lie. You should stop lying. It doesn't help your case.

"Making Dia stack adds NO skill expression." - Making Dia stack adds skill expression. Man! It's a wonderful world when I can just SAY THINGS and them be true and negate your argument. I don't need to give reasons, type out long posts, I can just SAY IT and it's true, right? Right? That's how this works? I can ignore anything you say by just SAYING it's not true and I'm automatically right? Wow, that's awesome!

"Does SAM's 60s DoT..." - SAM's DoT isn't a 30 sec DoT that can stack. Therefore, this is irrelevant. Does NIN or WAR's ability to stack their self-buff to 60 sec NOT add skill expression? Yes. Yes it does. Does it add A LOT? Not really. But does it add SOME? Yes. Yes it does add skill expression. DIA procing Misery or Assize would be laughably OP. And also dumb. That's a really dumb suggestion.

[/u]Moving all the heals onto the GCD fixes everything.[/u] It makes healing more engaging. It fixes healers in solo content. It fixes the fact we have too many heals. It fixes the fact that the healers are too similar. It fixes the fact that some heals are on too short of a cool down. It fixes the fact that encounter design is trash and our kit doesn't reflect it. It makes all healers feel different and MUCH BETTER because everything is on the GCD having a higher skill expression and eliminating one-button spam.

Man, I've been doing this wrong all this time! Just SAYING things are true and not giving reasons or discussion to support that makes debating SO much easier!

.

Also: You call a lot of things dumb, btw.

Maybe you're the one with dumb ideas.

Or, maybe, we should not be throwing around calling each other's ideas dumb. How about we try that instead?

In isolation, perhaps, but...[this whole post]

Ieeeeheee...agree...with Shurrikhan. Okay, I still disagree on the stacking DoT thing, but...never mind that! Don't want to ruin the moment.

And with that, I'm completely done with you.

Love you, too, Sebazy.

You're so desperate for validation for someone to agree with your thinly veiled hatred of raiders and challenging content

That's some impressive psychoanalysis there.

Impressively wrong, mind you. But when someone does something epically bad, it can still be impressive. It's like Fable - whether Hero or Villain, the Guild only cares that you make a mark on the world. Your take there is like a massive train wreck; terribly bad, but still impressive in its sheer badness.

Break down the actual comment:

Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is bad.
No other [role]needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna.
Endgame content has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but leveling roulette (and other content) does not, meaning healing is actually (gasp!) engaging in them, especially before you get your end-game oGCD kit.
Pressing three buttons in sequence is hardly better than pressing one button.

...that last being something even you agree with:

A 1-2-3 combo by itself isn't the solution here. It's just bloat and doesn't break up the current tedium.

While it's nice to get validation, I'm not "desperate" for it. I said I 100% agree...with a position...that I've agreed with for a long time.

I've said MYSELF time and again that Healers (or at least SOME Healers) shouldn't have a DPS rotation, that this is specifically because they have to react to other player mistakes and keep an eye on party health, that not all content in the game devalues healing, and that a 1-2-3 rotation doesn't fix the problem of bored players anyway.

Like, you're saying you're "done with me" for me agreeing WITH MY OWN POSITION.

The hell is wrong with you?

EDIT2:

Increasing incoming damage to the point where it actually taxes our existing kits isn't viable in mainstream content.

People aren't arguing this for "mainstream content". They're arguing this for Savage and Ultimates.

It's going to take so much more than the above to freshen up the current state of endgame healing IMO:

And...I agree?

I've said for a long time now that damage needs to be more continuous - and not FATAL; more continuous but smaller so that it can be healed through but requires consistent healing upkeep and can't be met by 1 or 2 oGCDs used every 30-45 sec or so. I've also said that bosses should continue to attack while casting, that autoattacks should actually be threatening, etc.

I've said all this myself. You've agreed with me on all this as we both hold that position.

For Dungeons, we disagree, since I draw a line at making mainstream content cater to people who already have content that caters to them (Savage, Ultimate, and now also Criterion Savage), though I do think that other things happening (CC, adds, debuffs we can Esuna that aren't just "you messed up on the 2nd boss of Manalis" checks). We also used to have MP management and lack of oGCD heals so that we actually had to engage with our GCD kit.

"casual endgame" isn't a dumpster fire. It actually seems to be fine. The issue right now is midcore endgame. As in...there isn't any.

Expert Roulette isn't what needs fixing "for player retention". We need some kind of content between MSQ and Extreme difficulty and we don't have one.

Consider a theoretical WHM styled after what BLU heals with, which gets:

Cure1, 500p/500mp cost, at 30 becomes Cure2/700p/500mp, at 86 becomes 800p
Medica1, 250p AOE/1000mp, becomes 400p at 45
Medica 2, 500p AOE/100p Regen on all allies for 15s, 60s CD
Stoneskin, 250p AOE shield, 800mp
Afflatus Rapture, 1000p AOE heal, 3000mp cost
Assize, 400p shortrange AOE, removes one debuff, 700mp

Healing covered,

Not really. The modern game is based on mitigation a ton. And non-BLU parties don't have everyone with Diamondback to cover that, nor would Stoneskin in this treatment solve that problem. BLU healing is also rather UNresponsive to mistakes, which is why it's considered (a) side content and (b) generally something more hardcore people do during downtime.

But I was more talking about its damage kit, which is ROUGHLY similar to the 4 green icon Jobs we have. That's what I found ironic.

I never said a 123 rotation was the only option, but it is an absolutely terrible option that needs to be squelched from the discussion with prejudice.

Mostly agreed. I do think there could be one specific way to make it work, but I don't think people want that. And I don't think it would be amazing gameplay, it just wouldn't be completely terrible. But I think most proposals are, indeed, the terrible forms.

[Shurrikhan]

Does NIN or WAR's ability to stack their self-buff to 60 sec NOT add skill expression? Yes. Yes it does. Does it add A LOT? Not really. But does it add SOME? Yes. Yes it does add skill expression.

You've got a bit of a double-negative going on there, so let's be doubly clear: No, Huton and Surging Tempest being able to stack did/does not provide a net increase to skill expression. The addition of Armor Crush simply replaced two forms of optimization (one pretty obvious, one more obscure) with single new (equally obvious) one, while Surging Tempest reduced skill gap and mostly axed a former means of optimization (maximizing the value of each Storm's Eye / minimizing wasted volume).

They softened punishment slightly, which can be a good thing depending on the relative severity of that punishment (how much else the punishment, or worrying about avoiding it, would otherwise overwhelm), but they both reduced skill expression -- Armor Crush slightly relative to optimizing Huton itself, and Surging Tempest's stacking reducing it pretty darn noticeably. Neither one was awful, if only because neither's contexts were that well set up for the earlier optimizations (little ability to resync one's macrorotation on WAR, and few use cases for differently timed Hutons on NIN with no-clip optimizations being notoriously dependent on particular amounts of ping on NIN), but neither was truly a step up, especially compared to just polishing the contexts to make the less obvious optimizations more visible and rewarding instead of axing them outright.

[@Skel]
DIA procing Misery or Assize would be laughably OP. And also dumb. That's a really dumb suggestion.

Agreed, though I would have to assume that more applicable here would be a single Blood Lily or Assize CDR... both of which still would likely reduce skill expression in that their anti-synergies would further punish holding Assize for more than just damage (reducing its use cases / what optimizations are worth worrying about for most players) and would delay Lily heals until Misery can be cast.

Previous examples included a Thundercloud-like effect, so we may as well sim that, too. Depending on whether it simply deals bonus damage equal to the remaining ticks on the replaced effect or is just an outright double-damage hit like the original Thundercloud, such would not necessarily be OP, but would also slightly reduce skill expression, as that randomization would degrade deliberate fight-specific planning and interaction with other means of mobility (Regen, that Lilies are quite limited, etc.).

In short: More on-paper stuff is not always more in-practice depth. It's often the opposite. Depth requires complexity, but that can often come from just putting very simple tools in the right arrangement with each other, rather than requiring any fat tooltip. Not all complexity is obvious, and not all complexity makes depth. The lasting gameplay lies in the implications on permissible gambles and what considerations are made relevant to each other, not just in what things happen to be co-affected without any change to optimization or consideration nor just due to each tool's amount of reading required or effects attached.

[Renathras]

No, Huton and Surging Tempest being able to stack did/does not provide a net increase to skill expression.

Agree to disagree, and I've already stated why in depth.

[HB]Which had very little to do with the position so much as that said poster was very, very obviously using a strawman (that the current discourse had supposed that any increased offensive agency on healers would necessarily be mere a 123 combo) just to smirch a far broader position (that the current Broil spam gameplay can be favorably replaced/augmented through additions to healers' downtime depth).

Except he was very, very obviously not.

The way I read his original post was "DPS rotation", not "123". Because the words he posted were...well...

Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is the worst idea I’ve ever heard.

While he goes on to INCLUDE 123, "DPS rotation" is more broad than that. These are two clauses:

1) DPS rotations on Healers are bad because they have other things to do that other roles do not, so other roles filling their excess mental space with a damage rotation makes sense but wouldn't for Healers (I've literally made this argument before, as have others, as has Yoshi P, meaning this is the official stated Dev perspective at this time),

2) And as a specific case, a 123 damage rotation, in particular, is no better than a single button one (and this is a position pretty much everyone in this thread seems to agree on to at least some degree and even most pro-damage people have noted would be insufficient for their desires as well).

I think you're deciding for the other poster what he was trying to say, and doing so through the lens of your ideology, which is inclined already to see it in the worst possible light. You could argue the same for me, but as he seems to agree with me, the way I read his post is the way I would intend it, and thus is more likely the way he did as well. But he can defend himself, so I don't really have any need to other than on this:

By the point of your agreeing with the poster, his behavior had clearly gone the way of trolling/purposefully derailing,

I'm not sure if it's a troll, honestly (though I could see it being a caricature of my own position done by someone trying to be too clever by half). Believe it or not, some people do legitimately think that way. I disagree with a number of his positions - note I didn't quote all of his posts and say I agree (in particular, I don't think removing high end content is wise and would argue against it) - so you can't say I was agreeing with all of his positions when I didn't say I was. Nor can you guild by association (fallacy) me to him as I didn't do so and we have no association. ...and...that's a fallacy anyway.

and given the timing of your previous responses around his own, it probably seemed likely you were aware of that.

I agreed with the specific points.

Didn't you JUST SAY in that other thread that it's okay to agree with people on SPECIFIC POINTS where you (in that case, Supersnow) think that they're right while not agreeing with them on everything?

Like...you literally just made that argument above your posting this HB block reply. You DO realize that, right?

Again, we've agreed on a lot of shit. We just approach certain things rather differently,

I do agree with that. But this...

wherein I like to find a means to make all parties happy first

As do I.

To my perspective, you seem not to realize what everyone wants. You know what you and those like you want, and you think you know what others want and how to offer it to them while not actually compromising. The problem is, what you think they want isn't what they actually want, which is why you and I disagree. You think you're offering a solution we can all agree on when you aren't, because you fundamentally misunderstand what the contra position is, and thus your offer doesn't meet their needs at all.

The reason I'm quick to compromise is because I don't want to be and am not inflexible (despite Ty's insistence to the contrary) and...well...do what you do, not actually offering people anything they want. I also recognize that no solution will make everyone completely happy, so the best we can hope for is something that gives everyone at least something they want. I also try to work my proposals into things that work within the confines of the existing world in which we live, not the world I wish we lived in instead. Like you, I'd MUCH prefer a world where we do more healing and have completely different encounter design - so much so, I advocate for it all the time. But I propose compromises and solutions (my WHM and SCH ideas, my 4 Healers Model) in light of what we presently have. When the Devs actually show a willingness to change encounter design, then I may shift proposals more into that direction (although I already KINDA have, though with less specificity - the oGCD change, for one...)

[Shurrikhan]

I agreed with the specific points.

Didn't you JUST SAY in that other thread that it's okay to agree with people on SPECIFIC POINTS where you (in that case, Supersnow) think that they're right while not agreeing with them on everything?

You are literally quoting words from that other thread... within the wrong link (this thread's post-ID instead). My quote doesn't make mention of some "other thread"; this is the other/wrong thread. You've misplaced your reply.

And again, I merely pointed out (in that thread that you've instead linked as this one) why one would have a negative reaction to that 'agreement' --i.e., as would otherwise seem a contradiction-- after they had already made that very same point to that very same person.

Expert Roulette isn't what needs fixing "for player retention". We need some kind of content between MSQ and Extreme difficulty and we don't have one.

Which, in early ARR was increasingly... the 4-man level-cap dungeons. On release, Amdapor Keep absolutely was harder than WP, which was harder than CM. Pharos Sirius was then harder than AK (maybe a little too large a step, but still).

And each directly and indirectly (most efficient way to gather the 300 mythic tomes per week) gave gear that would help one get into what was at the time the game's most difficult content (as ARR Savage 6-9 hadn't yet released yet as Title-reward content, similar to today's Ultimate).

Raids didn't originally have an explicit casual mode, but we added it. Why can't we do the same for dungeons, but as an option bringing back that culled difficulty span? Why would it be a bad thing to (again) offer some midcore content within 4-mans in that 18-40 minute range in run length that actually feel more cohesive and varied (and less finnicky/"gotcha") than Criterions and actually fill that midcore spot gear-wise instead of being tuned seemingly around the tier's near-BiS?

[ForsakenRoe]

Not really. The modern game is based on mitigation a ton. And non-BLU parties don't have everyone with Diamondback to cover that, nor would Stoneskin in this treatment solve that problem. BLU healing is also rather UNresponsive to mistakes, which is why it's considered (a) side content and (b) generally something more hardcore people do during downtime.

But I was more talking about its damage kit, which is ROUGHLY similar to the 4 green icon Jobs we have. That's what I found ironic.

The words 'healing covered' referred to the actual 'healing', the act of restoring HP. Presumably, there would be a cohealer in content that demands mitigations, who could have an equally basic core kit, but tuned towards mitigation.

As for BLU's damage, WHM's burst window is that it uses Glare faster, spends a Misery, weaves ONE damaging OGCD (Assize) and reapplies it's DOT. BLU's (as healer) is any of like 5 different primal burst skills, Tingle/Whistle/Triple Trident as a pseudo 123, probably something like Bristle>Matra Magic, and while it does have a 30s DOT, said DOT also has extra fluff because you can Bristle and snapshot it at a higher damage value. Having one filler move like Sonic Boom or Sharp Knife to spam does not make it 'roughly similar'. In fact, you could theoretically even change that to be 1-2 combos for your filler (Peripheral Synthesis > Mustard Bomb, Aqua Breath>High Voltage), or even adapt which filler you're using out of three based on Libra's debuff, should you decide to use Libra

And it's been discussed why a 'stack to 60s' effect would not 'add complexity'. In fact, I previously reasoned that it'd just be 'you refresh twice in raidbuffs, and then play as normal' but now I've been reminded, there's literally zero loss to just refresh it twice at the 1min mark too. Each minute, it's a pseudo 1-1-2 combo of Dia, Dia, Misery. And then you forget the DOT exists till the next minute. It'd be so uninteractive it'd be difficult to justify keeping the DOT in the kit. But we can't remove it from the kit, because we're rapidly running out of kit to even play with, and SE doesn't seem to remove things to replace them with something else to fill the gap, so we'd end up with WHM gameplay being nothing but Glare, and refunding itself via Misery when it has to heal. God that sounds awful to me, but I guess there's some people that would enjoy that. Lucky for them, they can play that right now by just not putting Dia on their bars

To my perspective, you seem not to realize what everyone wants. You know what you and those like you want, and you think you know what others want and how to offer it to them while not actually compromising. The problem is, what you think they want isn't what they actually want, which is why you and I disagree. You think you're offering a solution we can all agree on when you aren't, because you fundamentally misunderstand what the contra position is, and thus your offer doesn't meet their needs at all.

Look at it from this POV for a second: I am midcore, I haven't done the latest ultimates, but I have done one (TEA) in the expansion when it was current, so I have at least a bit of experience in on-content-Ultimate (not just overgearing the hell out of UWU). You have done a bit of Savage, mostly the first couple of floors, I assume to get a ring drop from the first so that you don't have to use double tome rings (I also dislike when the Balance recommends ilvl downgrades to dodge Piety).

If you're a self-professed casual, who has not been mid/hardcore, you would find it impossible to truly know what direction the 'mid/hardcore' would want without directly asking them. I would find it difficult to know what casuals would want without directly asking them, but it's not 'impossible', because I was once a casual, back in ARR/HW. I can think back to times when I was not as good at the game, and think 'would that version of me struggle to adapt to X change?' And given that I adapted back then to having one extra DOT (Combust/C2 were seperate) on AST, on top of Cleric Stance, on top of the Cards and Royal Road, I am quite sure that the suggestion of 'Dia duration lowered to 12s, Banish as 15s CD GCD' is not going to overload people's mental thresholds, except for those who have become SO ingrained in the current system, that they would shut their minds to any change whatsoever. In which case, adding 'more healing required' would equally screw them over, because now they can't just netflix their way through the content, they have to react to things

Why would it be a bad thing to (again) offer some midcore content within 4-mans in that 18-40 minute range in run length that actually feel more cohesive and varied (and less finnicky/"gotcha") than Criterions and actually fill that midcore spot gear-wise instead of being tuned seemingly around the tier's near-BiS?

Take Aetherfont's ilvl setup, the ilvl to get in is 605, the gear that drops is 625, the ilvl sync will be 660, probably. But the tome gear we can currently get, is 650! So why not have the 'Sastasha - Hard' style retelling of dungeons return, but actually be harder (ie justify the existence of those CC buttons like Repose), and the 6.4 one drops say, 640 gear? That'd make it equal in ILVL to the new crafted set, but anyone who's serious about Savage would not spam this, but get the crafted instead because A: time and B: pentamelds

Criterion would be a perfectly fine location to add the gear drops to as well if they wanted to avoid clogging the dev pipeline with 'another dungeon to design'. Trade those coins for something beyond just materia and the 100 for the mount

[Sebazy]

The hell is wrong with you?

I'm not the one going '100% agree' to a fairly obvious troll who's openly claimed that their only experience in this game is levelling dungeons and is merrily wading into discussions about endgame based on the likes of Doma Castle. But don't let me take away that dopamine hit of someone actually siding with you for a change

"casual endgame" isn't a dumpster fire. It actually seems to be fine. The issue right now is midcore endgame. As in...there isn't any.

Farming current 24 mans as a healer is the most boring content this game has to offer, I'm not even exaggerating when I say that cookie clicker gives a bigger dopamine hit than the likes of healing Aglaia.



That's ALL incoming damage as a non MT from Byregot across a ~5 minute fight.

Dumpster fire.