BLM DPS

[Renathras]

My point is that Why shoud a group take a BLM (with a good DPS like a lot of other class, yes BUT no other advantage) vs all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

SMN, RDM, BRD, etc do not do anywhere CLOSE to the damage BLM does.

The only Jobs that do comparable damage to BLM consistently are the Melee (RPR, MNK, NIN, DRG, SAM). SAM is the only other one that only brings damage (like BLM), so the other four doing more damage is based at least partly on their party buffing.

SMN and especially RDM do significantly less damage than BLM, as do MCH, DNC, and BRD. MCH/SMN (usually one or the other is next behind the Melee/BLM pack) do something like 7-10% less damage than BLM does.

in aDPS-nDPS with the first melee (excluding the sam) it has a gap of about 5% while with casters it is 10%. In rDPS being that it has no buffs, it is in line with melee rDPS and has a 5% gap with casters. (considering the 90th). I actually find that quite fair

Agreed. By the numbers, it seems pretty fair.

Some could argue that BLM and SAM should do the most DPS - I dunno about that, as why bring any other classes if that were true? - but they already are bringing more PERSONAL DPS than their peers, and BLM is well beyond SMN and RDM. BLM is more challenging to do that damage, but that's the point of the Job. If people wanted to play a Caster with those extra utility abilities, they play SMN or RDM. If they want to just have high personal damage with a high skill ceiling, they play a BLM.

EDIT:

I'll be really curious to see what happens next expansion if another 'non-utility caster' is added. Introducing in new jobs into a role invariably brings up insecurities and turf wars (as we've seen this expansion). Whenever players start comparing subjective experiences around 'job difficulty' to leverage more dps, you invariably see a simplifying rework get introduced. ('Oh, your job is more difficult than all the rest, you say? Well, why don't we just rework that instead of giving you a dps advantage over everyone else.')

The main reason why BLM has been so consistently successful to date is specifically because its players are fairly chill about the difficulty level and don't go out of their way to demand extra advantages for it. It's never been reworked as a result. As a result, the job is allowed to keep building on what it had previously, rather than having to recover from a rework/reset. If this mindset changes, though, the job is very quickly going to come into the rework crosshairs.

We saw this exact scenario play out already with a certain melee dps job and a certain deleted action this expansion. You know where this road leads. The choice is yours.

Bingo.

We can add PLD (6.3) and SMN (6.0) to the mix as well as possibly SCH/AST (5.0). All cases of "We do more work, can't we do more damage?" responded to with "Ohhhh, so you'd like us to lighten your workload while you do the same damage, then? Excellent idea!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNYRdCWmJU
(I can't find JUST the Great Mouse Detective quote, so you'll have to deal with a mashup two-fer. XD)

EDIT2:

Why would they be ditched? Do those players not like providing support? I'm genuinely curious. Are you saying people are ditching these classes because of DPS?

To answer this question:

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.

In 4 mans you don't need it unless the Healer dies, and even if that happens, Tanks can practically (or outright) solo most fights without a Healer. I'm not saying "Healers aren't needed", but I am saying that you don't need a RDM or SMN.

In 24 mans, you have 6 total Healers between the 3 parties. Unless they're ALL dead, you have people to Raise in most cases without needing a DPS that can. And even in the cases you might need that (cases where the three parties are split and can't safely raise each other's people), the DPS would have to be in that party.

In HIGH END 8 man content, Raises can help you during progression to see and map out phases, but once you have your healing plan down, have seen the mechanics and worked out the buffs and debuffs (or watched someone's guide), you don't strictly need Raises anymore. Given how many "body check" mechanics there are (where there's a wipe if one person is dead at a bad time, even if they're accepting a Raise), and how both your damage and max health are reduced after a Raise (making it harder to meet DPS checks and survive raidwides without being babied by the Healers), the extra utility of Raises goes down quite a bit once you're clearing content.

So in a very real way: YES, people are, in fact, ditching those classes because of DPS.

One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

If BLM were as mobile as SMN, it'd be the top Caster, hands down.

Is it fun to have a combat Raise? Yes.
If you're that clutch RDM that Verraises 22 times in Eden 4 Normal during the week of release (ask me how I know!), does that feel amazing? Sure.

But in objective terms, it's not strictly useful, or AS useful as it seems like it should be in MOST content.

[Turtledeluxe]

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.
One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

Seems natural that raises would be preferred for prog and then afterward get ditched, true. But I would also say in general response
- Casual content being too easy is a separate and large problem imo, but the game is so old that I'm not sure it can be fixed.
- Yes, it makes sense that if you have two classes with comparative difficulty of mastery and one out DPS's another, then it will be picked (so SMN over RDM). Based on that maybe RDM needs to be looked at.
- Not every group, even when they are done with prog,is going to be peak performing I would think, and running strictly a meta composition of all top DPS. And even so, shouldn't their be some cases and parties where extra raise isn't essential? Otherwise these other classes wouldn't be used at any point over the lifecycle of the fights?
- I realise what you're saying about movement. Part of the issue about that from what I understand is simply that in order to keep up the challenge, fights are becoming more and more movement intensive, which makes BLM more of a challenge.
- BLM is mobile and can maximize DPS if you've mastered perfect placement within the context of its unique play style.

Still thinking SAM could get a bit of a nerf. Not to make BLM top of leaderboards, to make selfish dps make sense across the board, and to reward both play styles for playing their selfish dps classes well.

And I just want to say, before someone quotes me and says "You just want to see BLM at the top of the aDPS" -- no I don't. I want to answer the question of the topic.