BLM DPS

[Turtledeluxe]

You know what's actually a better question... " When was the Last time BLM got nerfed? "

Not saying BLM should receive one, but I know a former static member just celebrates every Patch saying " Thank god Yoshi P yet again our BLM savior that didn't change anything ", cause I can't recall the last negative change BLM received in like... ever... Does anyone have a patch note? on the last significate received nerf BLM got? that would be a good piece of info to have for this.

When is the last time any class got a nerf and what was it?

Also you're being a little overdramatic with the "BLM hasn't been touched" thing. Yes it absolutely has. The difference is we like the changes to our game play because it makes us less slow and clunky (even though we are still that) so we can have a chance at fulfilling the one thing we do-- high damage -- particularly we can do it on more targets than just long boss fights and more often. It was a step in the right direction given the reputation of the job as the highest DPS in the game (which it objectively isn't according to the data apparently).

And actually I just checked PF-- I see savage content all over the place excluding BLM. Do you care to explain that orrr? That's because the job is too hard right? Seeing lots of summoners though. :/

[CelestiCer]

Nah, my SAM is in a garbled mess of gear and I still out do even the good BLM's. SAM despite how boring it is now is still bonkers with its dps.

It's 1 person's observation, I seen my fair share. It's not out of the ordinary. It's just that it's so one-sided the way Turtle presents BLM performance like it's lower DPS then a Dead SGE

snip

Again, you answered zero points.

Granted you stated being fairly new and you're being corrected by players with more experience yet you shrug it off as irrelevant. The DPS argument is pretty much refuted if you but look at FFlogs's statistics of the current relevant content. Links below, and it's far more then just giving the RDPS page a single blink.
ADPS here / NDPS here / The Omega Protocol Ultimate here

RPR popularity is higher then BLM because of Aesthetics and ease of use. Has nothing to do about Utility. Then you state BLM participation being low which again is related to popularity unrelated to DPS performance vs gameplay preferences of players. You then indirectly reference posts from years ago without links which is years ago, we're talking about the now. I asked if BLM ever got nerfed and its satirical since they haven't had a horrible change hit them like the rest of the Job roster in ever. That's a fact. You could have argued that other Jobs got buffed and BLM got left behind, but FFLogs again will proof you wrong on that.

Even if you desired more DPS output? Job difficulty is not what dictates DPS performance even if the hardest Job should feel like it has the most DPS -> it's just not Square's stance and they contradicted their own statements endlessly regarding DPS performance being related to Job difficulty.

You're showing no evidence/references/links that BLM are indeed suffering to justify buffs other then a personal desire to want more DPS performance that won't fix any of the issues you think BLM has. BLM has been in a very good spot for almost every patch. You then claim BLM gets excluded from PF parties and that's just not true. I go to PF on every NA Datacenter and rarely does any Job get excluded nowadays. Maybe RDM on week 1 P8S prog but lets not talk about that now amirite?

In Conclusion...
I think you're projecting a victim mentality on the BLM job that doesn't really do much for you as a player nor the BLM job as a whole. BLM has enough DPS for the role its supposed fulfill and you can throw BLM at any content and it can clear it.

[Turtledeluxe]

It's 1 person's observation, I seen my fair share. It's not out of the ordinary. It's just that it's so one-sided the way Turtle presents BLM performance like it's lower DPS then a Dead SGE
waste of time/projection/assumptions

1. There is *no DPS argument*. I am no explicitly asking for DPS buffs. That was something in the original post of the thread, not mine. I said distance may need to be created between BLM dps and some other classes-- that does not mean a buff. I said adding utility to the class would help-- that is not a buff. The question is what purpose is there in a glass cannon build that isn't really top dps and otherwise lacks any utility? You haven't answered that question. And yes what those logs are showing us is that BLM does good damage-- something I've said 60 times but you can't seem to read. The issue is that other classes do sufficient damage. It isn't garbage bin damage for the majority of classes. PLUS they have advantageous mobility and utility. I also didn't shrug off anything as irrelevant, I reviewed information before it was linked to me and reassessed, whereas you are an annoying know it all who can't stay on topic and cant use google.

2. BLM is excluded in PF sometimes-- I'm sorry but saying it doesn't happen ever is not correct. Pointing to RDM is more whataboutism. This thread is not about RDM.

3. Reaper is more popular because it does good enough damage, has party utility/limited healing, and ease of play *llike almost every class other than BLM*.

4. I never said BLM was suffering, you made that up I never said BLM can't clear content. You made that up too.

adding 5. If BLM could get more utility, how about this ? Lower the DPS, I don't care.

This conversation is over. You are just some random jaded player looking to dunk on people. BLM is my main class and the only reason I still play it is because I find it very fun to play. What's not fun about it is that other classes do enough damage and have enough overall viability to make it barely worth the effort of playing BLM-- and players confirm this actively by not playing the class over several years of time

I do not need to link you to threads you can easily google yourself regarding BLM participation in raids or the state of BLM generally. You still have mentioned which classes got nerfed either. Like I said, over-- hypocrite.

[Ggwppino]

If BLM could get more utility, how about this ? Lower the DPS, I don't care.

what do you mean by utilities? You mean a party buff? which would drastically lower the aDPS but the rDPS would remain the same. do you mean mitigation utility? What do you have with addle.

BLM is my main class and the only reason I still play it is because I find it very fun to play.

And that's the important thing! I'm glad for you that your main class hasn't been drained like mine that I've been playing for years.

What's not fun about it is that other classes do enough damage and have enough overall viability to make it barely worth the effort of playing BLM-- and players confirm this actively by not playing the class over several years of time

The BLM has one of the least compromised statistics on fflog. Whoever plays blm is because he loves class and knows very well that his damage is also proportionate to his uptime.

but i don't understand why the blm has to worry about melee damage. Melee are a different category, they don't break the blm's ability to play, unless sqe upgrades melee and not the blm with the next patches (which I think is the main thing and the mch has actually lived for almost 2 years , mistreated because mathematically inefficient).
I agree that for SQE statements: "Adjustments for each job are made individually based on the damage value, which is the standard value according to the item level, based on the difficulty of operation of each job, the difficulty of rotation, the number of support actions, and the details of their effects". https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...750.1663319334
the blm should be first (and in aDPS it often is), but even if they increased their damage further what would change? The blm is in a position to always be able to play. Before the buff he was in a bad position as he was only competing for the caster position without actually being rewarded. He is a caster and has a very specific role in the party but he does so much damage that he can have the doors open even for the melee position. (In this case of melee, because it's meleewalker, you said right, but whatever the meta, the blm currently would have the path paved and have a double chance to play)

[Turtledeluxe]

aDPS

But you have said its aDPS is already far too high compared to its counterparts. Now you are saying the aDPS cannot be lowered in favor of more utility. Yet Summoner, who has lower aDPS and utility, is extremely utilized for the new raid. Your answer is still "Well BLM's place in the game is that they kinda do melee damage". You are saying BLM can only compete with melee for DPS but not other casters for progression. Notice that Summoners are annoyed by their gameplay not their DPS. You keep painting me as DPS obssessed when I am not and I have no indicated that in any way. It's more about what BLM DPS means for it as a class in the game, not necessarily how high it is for the sake of beating out others.[/QUOTE]

but i don't understand why the blm has to worry about melee damage.

How would it break the game if BLM did more damage than a Samurai? I am genuinely curious. Since you keep bringing it up.

double chance to play)

I feel like you have a rose tinted vision of BLM based on your own time in very high percentiles where the ones who participate are very high performing (which I have never disputed). I don't play Ultimates and I haven't even started the latest Savage raids so my experience is limited to raising the class and some high end content. Yes, it's true BLM do very well at the very top, but that's because everyone does so imo what you're arguing isn't a cure all for this thread.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-more-utility/
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/351445/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...est_raid_tier/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...as_people_say/

Not saying they're suffering or that its widespread But I'm also saying that leveling as BLM and starting high end as BLM does feel rough sometimes because expectations are high (because of the percentiles) and it does feel a little frustrating because (and this is going to sound like a hot take)other casters have automatic desirability based on their utility -- they get a free pass where BLM has to prove it (not to say that really bad players can skate by with a res, bc they can't, that's not what I am saying). Although the player base in general is very nice, raiders often judge things by desirability and how it fits into a meta, and from what I understand, BLM simply is not that. This doesn't mean other casters affect my ability play the class, it doesn't mean the world is ending, it just means I am intrigued by TCs question of -- what is the point of a glass cannon build that doesn't really do top DMG and doesn't bring anything else to the party? But the conversation will go nowhere bc you and other players seem to think that BLM having "double the chance to play" (which, tbh, sounds like a cop out to TCs question) in very high end content means the class is perfect.

[Ggwppino]

But you have said its aDPS is already far too high compared to its counterparts. Now you are saying the aDPS cannot be lowered in favor of more utility.

I might have explained myself badly. If you add the party buff to the blm, I don't see why it should be first in aDPS/nDPS. It is no longer a pure dps.

You keep painting me as DPS obssessed when I am not and I have no indicated that in any way

You focused on that fact, I just wanted to make a note on what the post said. His thesis was that other classes did equal damage to blm but they also had buffs, and he started listing classes with buffs. I corrected by saying that the blm actually, even considering the buffs, does more damage than the other casters (filtering the fact that the blm is a caster and has nothing to do with the other types of dps).

How would it break the game if BLM did more damage than a Samurai?

It doesn't break any balance. But precisely because the two things are not related. Ah then I'm not against the buff dps of the blm, but I just find it useless.

I'm also saying that leveling as BLM and starting high end as BLM does feel rough sometimes because expectations are high and it does feel a little frustrating because other casters have automatic desirability based on their utility

The pressure is due to the fact that you are a pure dps and if you don't do dps you risk being mistreated. But this applies to all dps.

The blm right from the start has always been the caster with rDPS higher. It's right? absolutely yes and personally if put only like this it is also little.

In fairness, he got an extra burst entering the melee rDPS window (which melee are deliberately blatantly the dps that need to do the most damage).

Before there was a clear rDPS windows distinction between melees, casters and p-ranged.

A static may prefer whether to have more ress and choose an RDM, or have more dps like a melee and then choose a BLM. And a static may consider having a BLM in team instead of a melee (since the BLM has broken the caster rDPS barrier). You say that the ress is a free pass to get the spot, but in general that's not the case: it's a great way not to reset immediately during the mechanics prog but its true usefulness ends there.

they get a free pass where BLM has to prove it

the right optimization must always be there, if you are a rdm and you don't reach the standards the static set, there is no excuse for that, not even the much glorified ress. However it is a dps and in any case it must deal a fair amount of damage.

raiders often judge things by desirability and how it fits into a meta, and from what I understand, BLM simply is not that

You are right that many raiders are cynical and want the best. That's why the mch for 2 years has been loused up like the plague. But I don't understand why the blm should be regarded as the mch. Why shouldn't the blm be considered desirable? If it brings high dps?*

what is the point of a glass cannon build that doesn't really do top DMG and doesn't bring anything else to the party?

Even with a fine optimization, a blm still remains superior to other casters. Also, being a pure dps, it clearly only carries dps.
But the concept is even more general: why should I have a dps in party that doesn't do dps?



------
*I pretended nothing or rather wrote between the lines because I am afraid to open this parenthesis because it could be misinterpreted / my basic English does not allow me to express myself at my best, not digested well or open a pandora's box.
BLM is one of the few classes that is still complicated to optimize. Hard-content is slowly being made more and more accessible by those who take a class at 90 as soon as it is done and demand right away to be able to close. In the mmo's I have always played, before tackling hard-content, there was a need to learn one's class well, either because players demanded it or because the game itself demanded it. This does not mean to give clear-cut difference between those who are good and those who are not, it means that those who wanted to do high-level content had to put dedication into it and not have it ready-made right away. This is evidenced by the extreme simplification that the classes are reaching: the mnk, a positional class, has lost practically all the positional, the sam which slowly lost everything that characterized it and made it much more complex to the point of even removing kaiten, the mch which slowly became the class it is now, arriving at the abomination (in the extreme simplification of rotation) that is the smn. Not to mention the extreme size of the hitboxes making melee gain perennial uptime and making tanks lose the role of positioning. Having opened this parenthesis, the BLM but also the RDM have to compete with a class that has autoplay and also with a mobility of a p-ranged. Clearly they are at a distinct disadvantage because a class that has no damage variance since it has nothing to optimize (thus guaranteed damage and also high) with a ress can close so many doors to these two classes: Why bring in an rdm or a blm that may not know how to quickly optimize damage, when I can bring in a class with autopilot and in extreme cases also has ress? Currently blm and rdm have a big problem and that is the unfair no depth of smn. So while the BLM damage is fair, it is the bug in the system that makes life difficult for other casters in general. Or rather, the problem does not lie in the blm but lies in the casters situation (actually in smn).

[CelestiCer]

waste of time/projection/assumptions - hypocrite.

Insulting me rather then tackling my points... I struck a nerve. And using " whataboutism " when it doesn't suit your narrative filled with canned arguments.

" 1. There is *no DPS argument*. I am no explicitly asking for DPS buffs. "
You are consistently stating that BLM does not feel worth playing. and would be worth playing if it had more DPS. You're searching for something BLM can get added with DPS or Utility or something as an extra unnecessary edge to fix a none-existing problem.

" 2. BLM is excluded in PF sometimes "
Victim mentality. Just get good. I gave RDM example of P8S week 1 prog because that's been the last time Job exclusion happened in PF that BLM didn't to an equal degree experience, not then and not now. PS: not meeting an ilvl requirement is not exclusive to BLM, just fyi.

" 3. Reaper is more popular because it does good enough damage, has party utility/limited healing, and ease of play *llike almost every class other than BLM*. "
Again Victimhood and BLM is the top Caster in DPS and competes with the top Melee in DPS, it's just factually false.

" 4. I never said BLM was suffering... "
You got quite the narrative going to make me think you do honestly...

" 5. If BLM could get more utility, how about this ? Lower the DPS, I don't care."
Extra utility will not make BLM more desirable, it goes against their Job identity which has been Selfish DPS and it's not going to solve whatever issue you think BLM has in your mind.

If BLM had a decent enough edge in DPS, that alone would be the motivator to play it.

TLDR: Victim Mentality.
Complaining about the top statistics that you probably haven't reached to even comment on with own experience. Like complaining about 1 race car being faster then another when you yourself don't even use the same car to race with. It's pointless. Yet wrapping it all up as a canned argument to spew the narrative that BLM is missing... something in your mind... and then insulting players when they give you facts/stats/links... I don't believe BLM is missing any DPS and buffing them just ruins the balance we have.

If only players spend more time in-game improving themselves vs complaining about the none-existing lack of performance their Job supposedly does on the Forums =u=;;

[Turtledeluxe]

Insulting me rather then tackling my points

Learned it from your jaded posts.

You are consistently stating that BLM does not feel worth playing.

Yes, that's different from saying it absolutely has to have a buff. I'm glad you finally understand. Now, once again stop being so overdramatic with the wording. When I say it isn't worth playing, I am obviously referring to what TC asked in their original post. What is the point of a glass cannon that isn't the top DPS? They have all these trade offs, but not top DPS. You keep saying "well they're top DPS in caster" -- that's meaningless.

Victim mentality. Just get good.

I've never personally be excluded and you should honestly be forum banned for your needless antagonism of newer players. You are one of the reasons people leave this game, undoubtedly. You are a horrible representation of the player base.

You got quite the narrative going to make me think you do honestly...

No you just like to start fights and don't think-- that's your problem overall. I have had perfectly fine dialogue with everyone but you. Sit down.

When I tell you directly I am not just asking for DPS buffs and you willfully disregard that and proceed to insult me further, you're just proving your own ignorance. My posts are all there for people to read. I haven't claimed I have all the answers and I am open to several different things. If you don't think there's a problem then leave the thread otherwise whya re you still here

Extra utility will not make BLM more desirable, it goes against their Job identity which has been Selfish DPS and it's not going to solve whatever issue you think BLM has in your mind.

And they are a selfish dps, just one that requires way more effort than its counterpart (Samurai).

Complaining about the top statistics that you probably haven't reached to even comment on with own experience.

I'm not complaining about the leaderboards. I am complaining that BLM feels redundant and there's little incentive to play it. That's the theme of the topic. Pay attention.

I think it's best you go on ignore actually, so continue garbling my posts into your own narrative to your hearts content. I don't care. I'm not talking to you anyway.

[Mikey_R]

If BLM does the same damage as SAM it would absolutely break balance, there is only so much loss of DPS the general playerbase will tolerate before the utility becomes meaningless.

Going right back to the core, fights are designed with a DPS split of 2 Melee, 1 Caster and 1 P-ranged.

Each DPS role is designed to do a specific amount of damage compared to the other roles. Melee > Caster > P-ranged. This stems from the perceived difficulty in keeping uptime. [NOTE: I know this isn't the case with more recent fights and this is a problem with fight design in general. If this is the direction they want to go in for the future, then all jobs need to be looked at.] The harder it is to keep 100% uptime, the more damage the job is designed to do, which also meant you lost more damage when you couldn't hit something, which helped to balance things out more.

Now, using this model, if we have a BLM who can do the same or more damage than a SAM, where the BLM can have a higher uptime, this breaks the optimisation the SAM has to do in order to try and stay in melee as much as possible. BLM is now the easier job to keep uptime AND it does more damage, no contest, it is the better job to take.

If you take this into the context of party composition, BLM has basically become a melee, which means you end up with an effective party of 3 Melee and 1 P-range. There is no point replacing one of your melees with a different caster, depending on fight mechanics, it could cause things to not be predictable, among other things, however, in the same vein, you aren't going to replace the BLM with a different caster. DPS is king after all and i have already stated that a job utility can only do so much.

On the subject of utility, if all jobs in a given role do NOT have the utility (res being a small exception), then that utility is not something they balance fights around. They do not want to make a specific job mandatory after all. Res is a bit different as it is a loss in damage, not just from the job being inherently weaker, but because you have to take time to res, but healers should be the priority in ressing anyway. So really, unique utility for a specific job is meaningless. This is why jobs tend to get similar tools, which is where homogeneity comes from. Which, talking about this, homogeneity has NOTHING to do with a jobs DPS or making the job easier. It all comes down to how similar the jobs are to each other. Tanks having a similar defensive suite for example.

Which brings me onto the last point. You say I treat this as, in your words, a 'science experiment'. Call it what you want, the only thing that matters is the facts. If this means it is treated as a science experiment, then that is what it is. If you want to make a change to how the job balance is currently, you need to critically think about what the repercussions of that change are going to be, both positive and negative. Like it or not, at the core, the game is just a numbers game. Balancing these numbers is an incredibly difficult task and a change in the wrong direction can have drastic consequences.

So, my question is, why do you think BLM has to do more damage than SAM? What makes you say that? What are the pros and cons to this change? How is this going to affect balance? Are you going to need to change other jobs to balance this? How do you plan to change them if that is what you want to do? So many questions from just asking a simple question and whilst the initial question only seems to look at Casters and Melee, it will also impact P-Ranged. Feelings do no come into this, just the logical steps which leads to a specific conclusion.

[Bubos123]

First of all, a standard composition is 1 melee, 1 caster, 1 p-ranged and 1 free. No one said there must be 2 melee in the group, but SE has forced people to do so recently with job balance and fight design.

Besides, I don’t believe any melee job is more difficult in keeping uptime than BLM, even before EndWalker. And since EndWalker, there has been little difference between melee and p-ranged.

If BLM does the same damage as SAM it would absolutely break balance, there is only so much loss of DPS the general playerbase will tolerate before the utility becomes meaningless.

Going right back to the core, fights are designed with a DPS split of 2 Melee, 1 Caster and 1 P-ranged.

Each DPS role is designed to do a specific amount of damage compared to the other roles. Melee > Caster > P-ranged. This stems from the perceived difficulty in keeping uptime. [NOTE: I know this isn't the case with more recent fights and this is a problem with fight design in general. If this is the direction they want to go in for the future, then all jobs need to be looked at.] The harder it is to keep 100% uptime, the more damage the job is designed to do, which also meant you lost more damage when you couldn't hit something, which helped to balance things out more.

Now, using this model, if we have a BLM who can do the same or more damage than a SAM, where the BLM can have a higher uptime, this breaks the optimisation the SAM has to do in order to try and stay in melee as much as possible. BLM is now the easier job to keep uptime AND it does more damage, no contest, it is the better job to take.

If you take this into the context of party composition, BLM has basically become a melee, which means you end up with an effective party of 3 Melee and 1 P-range. There is no point replacing one of your melees with a different caster, depending on fight mechanics, it could cause things to not be predictable, among other things, however, in the same vein, you aren't going to replace the BLM with a different caster. DPS is king after all and i have already stated that a job utility can only do so much.

On the subject of utility, if all jobs in a given role do NOT have the utility (res being a small exception), then that utility is not something they balance fights around. They do not want to make a specific job mandatory after all. Res is a bit different as it is a loss in damage, not just from the job being inherently weaker, but because you have to take time to res, but healers should be the priority in ressing anyway. So really, unique utility for a specific job is meaningless. This is why jobs tend to get similar tools, which is where homogeneity comes from. Which, talking about this, homogeneity has NOTHING to do with a jobs DPS or making the job easier. It all comes down to how similar the jobs are to each other. Tanks having a similar defensive suite for example.