The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

[Absimiliard]

Lots of things

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

[Raven2014]

...

You can certainly say teamwork is a ... ahem ... skill.

I have seen high-end team fail, just like I have seen low end team get through content through grit. But ... I also see the opposite. I agree with whoever said ealier that the game already have mid-level content, some just don't want to admit it 'cause it doesn't fit their narrative.

Even without putting label on thing, there are clearly different tier of content:

- MSQ and solo instance = face rolling.
- Expert dungeon = just know how to press button.
- Normal trial/raid = need to know mechanic.
- EX trial = please know the mechanic and decent with your class.
- Savage = know what to do and be damn good at doing it.
- Ultimate = so far up there most don't even think about trying.

So the game offer plenty of step in the scaffolding process, and the mid-core content certainly have a few places to fit into, regardless of someone think it does in their own definition.

[RyuDragnier]

That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

All I know is they wouldn't be doing that if people were still locked to parties only on their server. It's the sort of thing that can get you blacklisted quickly.

[Gemina]

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend. That said, I never implied that individual player skill is not important, but that's not what this is about. What this discussion pertains to is the difficulty of content along the middle ground. As I mentioned before, a group of skilled players can and will trivialize how challenging the content is, but that does not increase or decrease the difficulty of it. At the EX level, the content stops playing around and lets players know that knowledge of mechanics, obeying them, and group coordination are required to clear it. It also lets them know that if they do not know how to play their job properly and how their skills tie together, they will not be pulling their weight, and avoiding enrage will be difficult. The difficulty of any particular EX encounter is set by how many mistakes are allowed to be made and the clear still be possible. EX encounters become easier over time due to ilv increases, which allow more mistakes to happen along with the party causing more damage overall. The Echo by itself also makes the encounter less difficult each time the party wipes.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

It's a team effort. Regardless if you feel it is your responsibility or not, you win or lose as a team. If someone screws up a mechanic that wipes the whole group, you can pin the blame on that one player, but this doesn't accomplish anything. When everyone helps this player understand their role in the mechanic they fail, and if that player communicates what exactly it is they do not understand to the others, the result more often than not is success. Especially opposed to just pointing the finger at them, and telling them they suck, or get better. A good example of this is when a player is confused on their clock position, or where a healer is supposed to take their stack marker. If it is unclear, wipes will happen. Help them to understand, and the content won't be harder than it needs to be.

[Absimiliard]

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend.

I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.

[Gemina]

I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.

When you are willing to express your PoV in a civil manner instead of just saying the playerbase sucks, it makes it easier to have a conversation with you. Even if you still feel that way, your restraint from continuing to express those thoughts is a change of attitude.

This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.

Not a single EX encounter in EW is MSQ level of difficulty. However, they are also not the same strength either. Some are definitely easier/harder than others. However, they are still middle ground level. This goes back to where I said that skilled players can and will trivialize the content, that does not mean the difficulty all of a sudden gets lesser. The opposite is also true if you feel the overall skill level of the playerbase is low. Their unwillingness to go into the content for whatever reasons those might be does not make the difficulty of content greater. Where we fundamentally disagree is that you somehow think that player skill level and the difficulty of the content conflate with each other.

Players who might want to try EX content but are a bit anxious about it is normal. Those players understand that the game changes in this content, and they might feel like their skill level isn't up to par and don't want to hold other players back. If more players express a friendly and good demeanor, more of them will venture into it. This is how I feel the community can increase the overall skill level of the playerbase. Not increasing the difficulty of NM casual content and shoving it down their throats.

[Anxin]

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately.

This is why I don't play difficult content. I have poor rote memory, and although I've considered writing scripts to help me remember boss sequences, I don't consider playing to a spreadsheet fun. So rather than hold people back, I don't play ex, savage, or even normal (after the first clear) trials. They just aren't fun for me, nor do I like to hold back the group. My idea of difficulty would be flexible, on-the-toes thinking because the AI/dungeon is being unpredictable, not fighting against my memory bandwidth.

[Kansene]

This is why I don't play difficult content. I have poor rote memory, and although I've considered writing scripts to help me remember boss sequences, I don't consider playing to a spreadsheet fun. So rather than hold people back, I don't play ex, savage, or even normal (after the first clear) trials. They just aren't fun for me, nor do I like to hold back the group. My idea of difficulty would be flexible, on-the-toes thinking because the AI/dungeon is being unpredictable, not fighting against my memory bandwidth.

This is exactly, 100% my issue as well.
I deal well with evolving, dynamic situations, and I'm good at split-second decision making.

But show me a 10-key sequence and I'll NEVER get it right.
Put me in front of a boss that needs me to be in 3 specific spots in a row and watch me fail 80+ times in a row.

[Absimiliard]

This is why I don't play difficult content. I have poor rote memory, and although I've considered writing scripts to help me remember boss sequences, I don't consider playing to a spreadsheet fun. So rather than hold people back, I don't play ex, savage, or even normal (after the first clear) trials. They just aren't fun for me, nor do I like to hold back the group. My idea of difficulty would be flexible, on-the-toes thinking because the AI/dungeon is being unpredictable, not fighting against my memory bandwidth.

Very respectable. Fact is, rote memorization is something quite a few people struggle with. Given every notable fight in FFXIV essentially being a dance one memorizes the moves to, it can really get frustrating for people not so up on rote memory. While I am confident you could find groups willing to slog through the process with you, I can certainly understand not wanting to put that expectation on others.

Not gonna lie, I kinda wish the fights were less memorization and more reaction too. The engine and bass ackwards netcode can't handle it, sadly. Closest we've gotten to a truly reactionary fight is Rathalos, which I'll grant was actually pretty enjoyable. If you haven't touched it, I'd highly recommend doing so despite it being outdated. You can get a really badass mount out of the deal.