The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

[Kolaina]

Contrarians strike again! As per usual...

I guess we need to start saying the game needs to be easier and then they'll come out and say it needs to be harder. Or just double down.

Ah. So anyone with a different opinion is just having one to be difficult. No diversity of thought or anything like that.

Don’t stray from the echo chamber you darn “contrarians”

[Floortank]

Making the game harder isn't going to magically make people better, it's just going to lose players who don't want to (or cannot) put that effort in. If your goal is to up the "average" then I guess whatever.. but if you're a game company that relies on player retention, then you're probably not going to want to cut player base just to make it so some players don't have slightly slower runs.

Yep, this is true.

I think SE should work on ways to help players improve, though. No one should need an external website or discord channel to learn how to play their Job correctly.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Yep, this is true.

I think SE should work on ways to help players improve, though. No one should need an external website or discord channel to learn how to play their Job correctly.

Tbf what defines the term "correctly" though?

[Kolaina]

Tbf what defines the term "correctly" though?

I’d say it’s a loose term but there are definitely “incorrect” ways to play.

As an example, I had a red mage yesterday hard casting veraero and verthunder instead of dual casting them as a follow up to jolt. This is definitely not correct when you consider the individual cast times

[Kolaina]

I get annoyed by it when people say crap like 'I cant do savage because I have a life'. I don't know what the hell people think is going on in this content, so to me, it just reads as you want to be different for the sake of it or are being a disingenuous contrarian.

Ah. That explains your position better

/thumbs up

I can understand your frustration

[IkaraGreydancer]

I’d say it’s a loose term but there are definitely “incorrect” ways to play.

As an example, I had a red mage yesterday hard casting veraero and verthunder instead of dual casting them as a follow up to jolt. This is definitely not correct when you consider the individual cast times

Wdym. Hardcasting means they hit harder. That only makes sense! /s

But yeah playing incorrectly is easier to pinpoint. For me playing correctly is simply following combos and positionals. Buffs n such when you can. For others playing correctly in is following rotations to a T

[Gemina]

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend. That said, I never implied that individual player skill is not important, but that's not what this is about. What this discussion pertains to is the difficulty of content along the middle ground. As I mentioned before, a group of skilled players can and will trivialize how challenging the content is, but that does not increase or decrease the difficulty of it. At the EX level, the content stops playing around and lets players know that knowledge of mechanics, obeying them, and group coordination are required to clear it. It also lets them know that if they do not know how to play their job properly and how their skills tie together, they will not be pulling their weight, and avoiding enrage will be difficult. The difficulty of any particular EX encounter is set by how many mistakes are allowed to be made and the clear still be possible. EX encounters become easier over time due to ilv increases, which allow more mistakes to happen along with the party causing more damage overall. The Echo by itself also makes the encounter less difficult each time the party wipes.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

It's a team effort. Regardless if you feel it is your responsibility or not, you win or lose as a team. If someone screws up a mechanic that wipes the whole group, you can pin the blame on that one player, but this doesn't accomplish anything. When everyone helps this player understand their role in the mechanic they fail, and if that player communicates what exactly it is they do not understand to the others, the result more often than not is success. Especially opposed to just pointing the finger at them, and telling them they suck, or get better. A good example of this is when a player is confused on their clock position, or where a healer is supposed to take their stack marker. If it is unclear, wipes will happen. Help them to understand, and the content won't be harder than it needs to be.

[Absimiliard]

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend.

I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.

[RyuDragnier]

Wdym. Hardcasting means they hit harder. That only makes sense! /s

But yeah playing incorrectly is easier to pinpoint. For me playing correctly is simply following combos and positionals. Buffs n such when you can. For others playing correctly in is following rotations to a T

Following rotations to a T I consider to be pushing damage. What you considering to be playing correctly I consider to be at least trying, and I want everybody to try.

[Gwen_Lavellan]

According to the World of Darkness I was just in a few minutes before, please don’t do this.
7 years playing this game and tonight a saw an enrage I have never seen before, on the 3 boss on separated platform (I didn’t knew the floor will be burning if no one activate the teleports…)