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  1. #1
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    Renathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    This isn't even in practice.
    Yes, it is. If you're using your abilities correctly, you will rarely be at 3 AF stacks when AF comes off CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    This is purely your fantasy...
    ...and people here say I have an attitude... <_<

    It's a bit hard to tell because it's in Japanese, but the top TOP SCH right now used 13 Soils and 3 Indoms in their run. The current bottom one (still a TOP clear, so keep in mind this is still a decent player) used 14 Soils, 5 Indoms, 4 Excogs, and even 3 Lustrates. Feel free to go and tell them that they're overhealing and playing SCH wrong, though.

    I find SGE very engaging. Far more engaging than Energy Drain, which is one of the most boring, uninspired, and outright stupid mechanics in the game - so much so, the Devs have already tried to remove it from the game. TWICE.

    You already planned out your toolkit for the fight. You know what you need and what you don't need at what points in the fight after you've learned it.
    Either you're talking of "purely your fantasy" or you've never been in a PF before, lol

    SCH's doing more damage if we include ED. The point was if we removed ED, we'd probably need to buff SCH a smidge to make up for the 400 potency per minute (average; in practice this is mostly crammed in the buff window so it maths out to more like 500-600) difference. And Energy Drain isn't sustained damage, though - optimal play crams ED into the buff window. You aren't using an ED every 20 seconds as "sustained" damage, you're pooling it for either strong buff windows (2 min) or lesser buff windows (1 min), or you're doing it wrong. "Doesn't normally fall into the burst window"? What are you talking about? It's on a 60 sec CD. It should be up for every single burst window in the fight unless you've done something really wrong. The opener is entirely based on that, especially the Dissipation opener.

    ED is what is almost always being cast in the burst windows. Broil is the sustained damage spell. The two are literally the exact opposite of what you say here.

    You can stand by it if you wish...I don't believe you're correct. The Job, if ED was removed, would work basically exactly the same as it does today. The only difference is people wouldn't be afraid of using AF on Soil, Excog, and Indom, and so those abilities would get more use. If anything, this would be better for SCH, not worse.
    (0)

  2. #2
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    Silver-Strider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Yes, it is. If you're using your abilities correctly, you will rarely be at 3 AF stacks when AF comes off CD.
    BECAUSE OF ENERGY DRAIN!!!! They sure as hell aren't being used for heals if only 16 stacks are used in a 19 minute fight; that isn't even 1 heal per minute so what are they using those extra stacks for if not Energy Drain? People aren't going to just throw out Soils, Indoms, etc for no justifiable reason if the party doesn't need it, which the 2nd group clearly did since they obviously had a harder time clearing the fight, either thru human error, lack of coordination, or any other combination of factors that we don't know about. That still doesn't change the fact that they still had to use Aetherflow stacks on Energy Drain because you'd have far more than just 27 Aetherflow stacks in that entire fight.

    I find SGE boring because there is no interactions within its toolkit. Energy Drain is an interaction, a decision on whether to heal or DPS, which is far more than the other healers get given that their Healing toolkits are barren of any interaction apart from buffs that make you heal more. Even AST's cards don't offer much of a choice anymore since they're all the same now.

    Either you're talking of "purely your fantasy" or you've never been in a PF before, lol
    Just because PF is a shitshow, doesn't mean that I'm burning all of my Aetherflow stacks on heals because generally if you screw up a mechanic in Savage, 9/10 it's a wipe. Sure, if someone dies after resolving their mechanic, I can rez them and if Aetherpact is too slow before the next mechanic, then I'll throw a Lustrate their way but in those situations it's not overhealing because the person is at 25%.

    Unless you're burning all 3-6 stacks within the 15s or so that Raid buffs are up, Energy Drain is not getting into the buff window as often as you believe it does. The Dissipation opener allows for some level of flexibility but if the burst window is delayed for whatever reason, such as the boss becoming untargetable, then it's possible that you'll delay Aetherflow before being able to spend excess stacks.

    Getting more usage out of Soil, Excog, etc doesn't make SCH better. It makes it more braindead to play since it would lose the only real interaction within the toolkit and makes Dissipation and Aetherpact worse off for its removal.
    (10)

  3. #3
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    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    Getting more usage out of Soil, Excog, etc doesn't make SCH better. It makes it more braindead to play since it would lose the only real interaction within the toolkit and makes Dissipation and Aetherpact worse off for its removal.
    It'd also mean getting more HPS via Soil's regen, more HPS from Indom, etc. Which means less room for 'enforced GCD healing' which is supposedly the way to make 'healer role more interesting' according to some people, despite this tier proving pretty comprehensively that actually it is definitely not the solution

    Also IDK which logs you guys looked at, but I'm looking at '3rd best group (first to have a SCH in it)', and the SCH has 14 Soils, 10 Indoms, 5 Excogs, and 4 Lustrates. The problem with that, they also used 19 Aetherflow casts and 4 Dissipations, for a total of 69 stacks. Where did the rest of those stacks go? Oh, right, on THIRTY SIX Energy Drains. Still over 50% of the resources in a 19min fight went on ED, and that's before considering whether the 8 Recitations they used went on Indoms or Succor/Adlo

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like Energy Drain from a design standpoint either, but it's the keystone that holds the whole class up atm unfortunately. Removing it would require a full rework to the class's gameplay and SE is too lazy to put that kind of effort in
    (3)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 02-12-2023 at 02:23 AM.

  4. #4
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    Renathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulminating View Post
    I don’t think...
    Referencing statistics is not an appeal to authority. The other user is essentially saying no one uses AF on things other than ED unless they're wrong, and I'm pointing out very high end players use AF on things other than ED. You can argue they've optimized their kits to use less other AF abilities so they can use more ED, but that's not the argument. His argument is that Energy Drain is so core to how SCH now works that not having ED would make the class break. My point is that it clearly would not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    there's also the factor of Recitation being used to cause some of those aforementioned Indoms to not actually cost a 'flow, so that would skew the % of 'how many stacks were spent on ED' further towards ED
    Oh, that's possible...except Recitation can't be used on Sacred Soil. Or Lustrate. We could look at how many Recitations were used and look at if Deployment Tactics was used with them to see how many of those likely went to Adlos, and subtract the rest from the Indom stack, but we still run into the issue of Sacred Soil not using that.

    Again, note what my argument is and is not.

    My argument is not that no one is using Energy Drain, that every AF spender goes to ED, etc.

    My argument is that SCH would not be broken or unplayable without ED.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    BECAUSE OF ENERGY DRAIN!!!!
    I'm literally citing people using other AF abilities - and thus not having 3 stacks of AF when AF comes off CD - by using things THAT ARE NOT ENERGY DRAIN!!!!ONE!!1!

    They are, in fact, being used for heals. Even looking at that hyper-optimized number, that's still around 0.9 AF per minute being used on a healing ability. And keep in mind, they are probably trying to MINIMIZE use of them SO THEY CAN USE MORE ENERGY DRAINS. You're using circular reasoning. "Because ED exists, people use ED, that means ED must exist!!" The right way to view it is "Because ED exists, players are adapting away from using AF on non-ED abilities if they can. If ED was not competing with those AF uses, they would likely be using more AF heal/mitigation abilities."

    And that's just looking at the top end. Get into green parsing SCHs and you'll see A LOT of AF being used on its healing/mitigation abilities instead of EDs.

    We can even see this looking at SGE. While optimal play is to burn AG for MP, people aren't just throwing Durocholes left and right for funzies. They're using Kera, Tauro, and Ixocholes as part of their main healing kit.

    That's what SCH would be like without ED: Intelligent use of AF abilities as part of a healing plan, rather than what we have now, which is people try to remove AF heals from their bar so they can squeeze out a little more damage.

    Unlike with SCH, SGE actually has a rational choice of how to spend their AG. SCH has no choice. It's either ED or you're doing something wrong. That's not a choice, that's a punishment.

    Granted, this goes back to "is the rest of their oGCD kit too powerful", but in the end, it is what it is. Moreover, you anticipate perfect play from all players and a lot of other things that aren't true in reality. Hell, people sometimes use Succor in PF content because of getting so many party members that stand in bad and have to be babied across the finish line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    I find SGE boring...
    Well, a lot of people do not.

    What you call "boring" a lot of people would call "good game design without anti-symmetry abilities that actively work against each other".

    In the game as it is now, ANY time that something is a "decision" between damage or anything else (mitigation, healing, or utility), the "not-damage" option is always considered "wrong". Damage >>>> all, so anything that is not damage is the wrong choice. "You did something wrong with your oGCD plan if you had to give up damage here".

    There is never a "decision on whether to heal or DPS". Either you DPS or you did something wrong. That's the way people treat the game right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    you screw up a mechanic in Savage, 9/10 it's a wipe.
    That's not even remotely true. Most fights have several mechanics that if anyone screws up, it's a wipe, but quite a few that if someone screws up, it's not. For example, Proto-Carby's first charge, if someone screws up, it's not a wipe for the party. Using mitigation can cover someone not being in one of the light party stacks, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    Unless you're burning all 3-6 stacks within the 15s or so that Raid buffs are up, Energy Drain is not getting into the buff window as often as you believe it does.
    https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs...holar/openers/

    Not to be snarky, but "Do you even Balance, bro?" might apply. Some choice quotes:

    "...and it aligns Aetherflow correctly for a six ED buff window at two minutes."

    "...though this risk is shared by any rotation that does six ED buff windows every two minutes."

    "Swift Opener: 6 EDs in Chain if done properly, requires a bit of Spell Speed (2.43 GCD should be plenty). The ED directly after Chain cannot be used until the Chain debuff actually applies to the enemy, or else it won’t get the Crit buff. Don’t do this opener if you’re not going to be trying for all 6 EDs."

    The entire point of these openers is to get 6 EDs into raid buffs - specifically within Chain Strat, but it applies to overall raid buffs - and to line them up so that you have 6 EDs for all future 2 min burst windows. The only window that gets weird is the 6 min one, since in theory you could have Dissipation up, Aetherflow up, and have 3 AF stacks if you had been sitting on them, which would allow for up to 9 EDs to be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    It makes it more braindead to play...
    Your concept of braindead is weird. It's essentially "Giving players a choice to be suboptimal and play wrong", but people always have that choice.

    Dissipation is honestly bad, and MANY people agree on that already. ED isn't saving it or making it galaxy brain to play. Again, ED is such a bad ability the Devs have already tried to remove it _TWICE_. It's clearly not core to the game. Once again:

    Again, note what my argument is and is not.

    My argument is not that no one is using Energy Drain, that every AF spender goes to ED, etc.

    My argument is that SCH would not be broken or unplayable without ED.

    .

    That said, I don't care (despite talking about it) all that much. SCH is what SCH is, and I'm happy it exists for people that like this delusion of gigibrain play. But ED is not some core crux of the class that holds it all together. If it was gone, SCH would work just fine. SCH worked just fine in 5.0, it just felt weird since there was no productive AF spender if Excog and Soil were on CD when AF came off CD. All it needed was something to spend ED on at that point - literally anything - and the Devs weren't creative enough to do something like lower Soil's CD, give SCH a single target AF shield or single target AF mitigation (Benison or Aquaveil type abilities) - any one of which would have fixed the problem.

    YOU can say "herp derp overhealing!!" all you want, people would have been happy with those options since there is no time a shield, regen, or mitigation on a Tank isn't useful if it's costing you nothing and allows you to free up other oGCDs for your overall healing plan.

    .

    Anyway, I'm going to let this one go. If you know so little of SCH that you think SCH play doesn't involve cramming ED in to buff windows, despite the lead theorycrafting, parsing, and top players all doing this...there's really nothing to discuss since you clearly don't understand how the Job's even supposed to be played right now...

    Seriously, as I said before:

    ED is what is almost always being cast in the burst windows. Broil is the sustained damage spell. The two are literally the exact opposite of what you say here.
    If you're wrong on even that...well, it would explain your view the entire Job is based around ED and ED being removed would break it...
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 02-12-2023 at 03:28 AM. Reason: EDIT for space

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    That's not even remotely true. Most fights have several mechanics that if anyone screws up, it's a wipe, but quite a few that if someone screws up, it's not. For example, Proto-Carby's first charge, if someone screws up, it's not a wipe for the party. Using mitigation can cover someone not being in one of the light party stacks, etc.
    Honest question that isn't intended to be rude - have you actually cleared this tier or are you just going off of what you think the tier is like? There's a very big reason people have been complaining about how body-check dependent mechanics are this tier.
    (9)

  6. #6
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    fulminating's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Referencing statistics is not an appeal to authority. The other user is essentially saying no one uses AF on things other than ED unless they're wrong, and I'm pointing out very high end players use AF on things other than ED. You can argue they've optimized their kits to use less other AF abilities so they can use more ED, but that's not the argument. His argument is that Energy Drain is so core to how SCH now works that not having ED would make the class break. My point is that it clearly would not.
    I believe you have fundamentally missed the point being made. For better or worse, scholar revolves around aetherflow and its management. One of the ways to manage this resource is to dump excess into energy drain. Use of aetherflow abilities including energy drain also fuels the fey gauge, which allows for more healing over the course of the fight. Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters. Living on 1hp is exactly the same as living on 100% - there is no mechanic that gives you a damage boost when at higher health percentages or penalty while at critical hp. Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays in that it would necessitate gross overhealing to manage both mp and fey gauge, or overcapping on aetherflow to ensure you're not sinking wildly into mp debt. Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button to have to dump aetherflow with as it's merely a waste on the healthy. If they were to make this change and refuse to revert, I'd avocate for "slowened aetherflow", where the usage of aetherflow adds 10s to the recast timer just to take the edge off having to overcap so obscenely.

    I've looked at logs for p8s phase2 and top, both of which show at least half, usually significantly more aetherflow uses going into energy drain than the other aetherflow skills combined. It does not matter how you try and twist these data, energy drain is the main usage for aetherflow.
    (4)

  7. #7
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    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    just an update, a group called NO DRAGOON posted a run after I had already looked at a different group. This new run has 3 indoms, 3 excogs, 1 lustrate, 15 soils and FIFTY THREE energy drains. a massive increase over the other log, now we're at like 80% of the aetherflows in the fight going into ED

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Oh, that's possible...except Recitation can't be used on Sacred Soil. Or Lustrate. We could look at how many Recitations were used and look at if Deployment Tactics was used with them to see how many of those likely went to Adlos, and subtract the rest from the Indom stack, but we still run into the issue of Sacred Soil not using that.

    Again, note what my argument is and is not.

    My argument is not that no one is using Energy Drain, that every AF spender goes to ED, etc.

    My argument is that SCH would not be broken or unplayable without ED.
    Then it's a good thing I didn't bring up Sacred Soil, isn't it. I specifically said Indom, because that would be my first assumption for where the Recitations are being spent, with Adlo a second, due to Deployment. IDK why you bring Soil into it when its clearly not part of the point. I went and rechecked though, just for you. Luckily there's a 'timeline' function on the site that makes it easy to check this stuff. All 8 Recitations, in the log I originally mentioned, were spent on Adloquium. So it hasn't changed the fact that half of the Aetherflow in the fight went to ED.

    We know how 'broken and unplayable' or not SCH would be without ED. We've seen it and played it. The devs gave ED back in a clumsy hotfix. If SCH was not 'broken and unplayable', even without ED's presence in the kit, surely the devs would have either left us without ED returned, or replaced ED with something else? The fact they backpedalled on it without any hint of an alternative beyond 'guess you can just overcap then', shows how necessary to the kit ED is. If they moved the MP restore off of Aetherflow's cast, and put it on the spenders (so, exactly like SGE) and removed ED, it'd be 'functional', sure, but it'd also not play well. People already complain that it feels jank to purposely overheal as SGE just to keep your MP in check. I complain it feels jank to purposely overheal on WHM to prep a Misery for burst windows. It'd feel jank on SCH too. It did in 5.0, it will do in whatever patch this 'remove ED' happens, unless there's something to take it's place, I think.

    Personally, I'm more fine with SGE than SCH, I don't feel the pain of 'overcapped on galls oops' because I'd rather have them than not when it comes to the once-in-a-fight point where I actually needed them. It feels bad on SCH because you get all 3 flows at once, so you have to make sure you're empty before you press the Aetherflow button. Maybe if there was a more granular generation, in the way that WHM and SGE have theirs generate once every 20s, it'd feel a little less bad. Heck, that way maybe we could get back 'Quickened Aetherflow', but reworked slightly, so it's more like 'you generate a flow every 30s. When you use a flow, instead of it shaving 5s off the timer, it instead doubles the generation rate for 10s'. This way, it actually feels like the 'flow' is being 'quickened', shown by the gauge filling up at a more rapid speed. We know SE can make timers tick faster or slower because they've done it in the new 24man.

    Again, if there was a 'new skill to throw Flow on' I'd take OGCD shielding. It would buy us extra damage in the form of 'you dont have to press succor for this raidwide now'. But if there needs to be a DPS component to it, a 'best of both worlds' solution could just be an OGCD single target shield (so like Benison), that, upon expiration or consumption of the shield, deals X potency damage in an AOE around the shielded player. Now there'd be something to throw about in a big wall-to-wall pull, alternate that new OGCD on the tank, and AOW to deal damage, and we're getting somewhere.
    (3)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 02-12-2023 at 05:31 AM.

  8. #8
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    Renathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nizzi View Post
    Honest question that isn't intended to be rude - have you actually cleared this tier or are you just going off of what you think the tier is like? There's a very big reason people have been complaining about how body-check dependent mechanics are this tier.
    I've cleared some fights this tier, which is why I outright mentioned one.

    People have complained because literally every fight this EXPANSION has had a body check. Erik did as well.

    The body check on P5S is Devour. If you're missing even one person, that's generally going to be a wipe (technically you can have one person dead, but only one). P1S's body checks were Fourfold Suffering and Intemperance. P2S's were the dash/limit cut thing and the shove + puddles mechanics.

    That's why I said "several mechanics" not "all mechanics".

    Quote Originally Posted by fulminating View Post
    I believe you have fundamentally missed the point being made.
    No, I think it's that we're talking about different things.

    You're talking about what optimal SCH play with Energy Drain in the game is, and I'm noting that SCH play would be fine without that. That SCH currently revolves around that is irrelevant since its removal wouldn't significantly alter the playstyle. (Not to mention "revolves around" is pretty subjective; it doesn't revolve around Energy Drain, it revolves around Aetherflow, of which ED is one method of managing, but not the only one, and not the only possible one, either...) Consider a world where Energy Drain has been removed. Here is how SCH would play:

    Maintain ABC with Broil casts, refreshing Biolysis when it has less than 3 seconds left. Use Chain Strategem on CD for 2 min bursts outside of planned party burst delays for untargetable phases. Establish an oGCD healing plan for the encounter with your co-Healer. Place your Faerie in the center (or whatever) of the field to ensure Faerie-centered abilities apply to the party. Use Aetherflow on CD to regenerate MP and resources.

    That's how SCH plays today, with the only difference being your burst windows are a bit less hectic since you aren't trying to cram EDs into them, and you would have AF spenders be higher priority oGCD use, giving SCH's healing toolkit more flexibility. Otherwise, SCH would play identically to today. Hence why I say it wouldn't break the Job for it to be removed, since the Job would, overall, play the same way it does today. The only major change would be the skill ceiling to optimize it would be slightly lower, but that doesn't break the Job, either. (And, let's be real, Faerie Gauge needs a serious rework as well; it's probably the most useless Job gauge/mechanic in the game - looking at those same top players, Fey Union's healing tends to make up a tiny fraction of their overall healing.)

    Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters
    But don't you see, this is why I say it's bad. Because it's never a choice. You're either doing it right, or you're wrong. They could delete Excog, Lustrate (they could delete that one anyway...), and Soil and SCH be played largely the same because you aren't allowed to use them. And why not? Because Energy Drain.

    Though you again overstate your case:

    Energy Drain has nothing to do with MP management, and having a non-damage AF spender that produces mitigation would not be overhealing.

    Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays
    As shown above:

    No, no it would not.

    SCH without ED would play almost identically to SCH with ED. That's the exact opposite to "fundamentally change".

    Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button
    This is the part where I have to ask if you've actually read any of my posts before replying to them. I've literally said that removing ED would mean they'd need to give SCH a spamable AF spender with mitigation attached to it like Divine Benison, Aquaveil, or Taurochole. You should really read things before replying to them...

    For better or worse, scholar revolves around aetherflow and its management. One of the ways to manage this resource is to dump excess into energy drain. Use of aetherflow abilities including energy drain also fuels the fey gauge, which allows for more healing over the course of the fight. Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters. Living on 1hp is exactly the same as living on 100% - there is no mechanic that gives you a damage boost when at higher health percentages or penalty while at critical hp. Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays in that it would necessitate gross overhealing to manage both mp and fey gauge, or overcapping on aetherflow to ensure you're not sinking wildly into mp debt. Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button to have to dump aetherflow with as it's merely a waste on the healthy. If they were to make this change and refuse to revert, I'd avocate for "slowened aetherflow", where the usage of aetherflow adds 10s to the recast timer just to take the edge off having to overcap so obscenely.

    I've looked at logs for p8s phase2 and top, both of which show at least half, usually significantly more aetherflow uses going into energy drain than the other aetherflow skills combined. It does not matter how you try and twist these data, energy drain is the main usage for aetherflow.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    just an update, a group called NO DRAGOON posted a run after I had already looked at a different group. This new run has 3 indoms, 3 excogs, 1 lustrate, 15 soils and FIFTY THREE energy drains. a massive increase over the other log, now we're at like 80% of the aetherflows in the fight going into ED
    53/75 ~= 70%

    Then it's a good thing I didn't bring up Sacred Soil, isn't it. I specifically said Indom, because that would be my first assumption for where the Recitations are being spent, with Adlo a second, due to Deployment. IDK why you bring Soil into it when its clearly not part of the point.
    I wish you wouldn't do this so often. "I don't know why you bring up thing that opposes my argument, I'd like to pretend that's not a thing since it makes my argument weaker..."

    I bring up Soil because it's used more frequently and because it's an AF spender that cannot be used with Recitation and is not Energy Drain.

    If SCH was not 'broken and unplayable', even without ED's presence in the kit, surely the devs would have either left us without ED returned, or replaced ED with something else? The fact they backpedalled on it without any hint of an alternative beyond 'guess you can just overcap then', shows how necessary to the kit ED is.
    Man, I wish I lived in your headspace sometimes...

    No, it proves none of this. What it proves is that the Devs were trying to mollify the complainers, not that they felt ED was critical to the gameplay. Recall they nerfed it to the point it was only a DPS gain of something like 30 potency (since you had to use it with Ruin 2). They effectively made it as negligible as possible when giving it back so that it would have a minimal impact between the people using it and not using it.

    That says they felt ED was not at all critical to the game play, and were actually trying to make it as non-critical as possible. It wasn't the big DPS gain (if "big" is even the word for it...) that it is now until EW lowered Broil's cast time to allow a good weave window. SCH wasn't "broken" in 5.0.

    As I've said SEVERAL TIMES, the word was "awkward", not "broken". SCH in 5.0 was still the most powerful Healer in the game at the time - and for all of ShB. Its problem wasn't ED being gone, its problem was Fey abilities ghosting and it still had a lot of weird clunk. Some of which was fixed in EW, but some of which remains.

    If they moved the MP restore off of Aetherflow's cast, and put it on the spenders (so, exactly like SGE) and removed ED,
    ...literally no one is arguing for this. You're fighting a strawman here.

    Maybe if there was a more granular generation, in the way that WHM and SGE have theirs
    I don't often see you argue for homogenization...

    But if there needs to be a DPS component to it,
    There doesn't, in fact, need to be a DPS component to it. Taurochole has no DPS component and is fine.

    ...though that said, an aoe bursting shield would be cool for dungeons, but people would probably demand it have a CD for some godforsaken reason, defeating the entire point... <_<

    .

    Also note again for the record:

    I'm not advocating for the removal of Energy Drain.

    I'm simply arguing that the idea SCH "revolves around it" or would be "nigh unplayable" without it are silly extremeism statements overstating (vastly) the argument for it.


    The main valid argument for ED, imo, is that SCH has no other spamable AF spenders that are useful (Lustrate generally isn't) in most casts (when party health is in a good place already and Soil and Excog are on CD), and that it allows for a feeling of (really) slight optimization for players really into that.

    Those are valid arguments to make in its favor.

    SCH "revolving around" it or being "nigh unplayable" or "broken" without it are not.
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    Last edited by Renathras; 02-12-2023 at 06:43 AM. Reason: EDIT for space

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    I find SGE very engaging. Far more engaging than Energy Drain, which is one of the most boring, uninspired, and outright stupid mechanics in the game - so much so, the Devs have already tried to remove it from the game. TWICE.
    Energy Drain is quite literally the best designed mechanic that any healer has in the game and it is THE reason that Scholar continues to be the best designed healer in the game despite the amount of gutting and changing it has gotten over the years. Because of Energy Drain, Scholar remains the objective BEST healer for any new player to learn healing on because of how it interacts with Scholar's entire healing kit and gives Scholar a healing priority that encourages the proper usage of your kit to get the most out of it in a way that no other healer does.

    Energy Drain's existence gives Scholar players a choice and something to think about that the other 3 healers don't have to think about to push the most out of their job. Does this player need this Lustrate, or will Eos be able to top them up with Embrace before the next mechanic? Do I need to use Indom, or will Whispering Dawn be able to cover this before more damage goes out? Can Aetherpact cover this or do I need to use Excogitation? Scholar is the only healer that does not want to overheal if it can, and this is a good thing because Scholars are rewarded for knowing a fight by being able to use their resources on damage instead of healing. Energy Drain's existence means a player is allowed to fail; and failure is always the first step to becoming a better player.

    Beyond that too, Energy Drain is the ability to learn where you can get by on dropping overhealing and shaving down a fight, making reclears far more interesting on Scholar than any other healer (though still boring because 1 DoT 1 Nuke lmao). I did p5-p8 reclears with my static and I swapped to SCH for them. Not once did I think Energy Drain was ever an issue, even in P8Sp2, a fight that requires way more healing than any other fight in the tier, including the doorboss.

    I'm finally doing DSR as a SCH right now (taking a break off BLM); and again, Energy Drain isn't an issue. Fights in XIV are very static and timelined - once you know where you're going to use a healing resource, you tend to use it there every time every subsequent pull unless there's a better spot for it slightly later before it's off CD. Removing damage (something always useful and never capped in usefulness) for more healing (something with a capped level of usefulness in every encounter that has ever existed or will ever exist) is always a bad idea because designing a healer to heal less and have no reward for cleverness or proper usage of tools is always a bad thing. "More heals/More shields!" isn't a reward. It's absolutely meaningless and you get nothing out of it.

    Silver-Strider is completely correct with his assessment of Energy Drain. Scholar's entire kit is contingent on having it there and while we can argue all day on whether or not it's a good or bad thing, the fact of the matter does remain that Scholar's entire healing kit priority flows in a way that no other healer's does; it's damage works in a way no other healer's does, and why Scholar's entire kit has interactivity in a way that no other healer's does. Scholar is probably the one healer job that you can make the case for that almost every button is hard to cull, and that's because of Energy Drain.

    The best part about Energy Drain is that it is entirely optional optimization, and you can completely ignore it if you want and do around 95% of the same contribution that a Scholar who is optimizing Energy Drain is. Energy Drain is good design. It's the reason I enjoy Scholar beyond aesthetics and why it's the most fun healer to play to me. I genuinely cannot stand WHM, AST or SGE, but I love Scholar because of how well it's kit flows - and that's because of Energy Drain's existence.
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