Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Aurora428]

I think "1%" of all jobs away from each other sentiment is pretty awful.
Generally I'd say "3-4%" is good, at least a good start and a good goal for future balance, I don't think a massive difference like 10% should exist.

With Jobs such as RDM you can point to raise/utility for a reason why it should be lower then BLM, obviously the current gap might be too much, BLM is too low in the first place.

With jobs such as Mch, you can't really say "oh yeah mch has x utility" because it has nothing other then something that all ranged has (Dancer gets a boat load of healing utilites), you can't point to it's mobility over dancer or even bard because they have better mobility, You can argue "ease" but generally DNC is considered very easy, while mch is a bit more difficult (from what most people say). You can't point to any reason why mch is really worse then the other ranged DPS, because theirs zero room for any sort of reason.

Melee/ranged/caster tax, generally forgets that Black mage is generally a lot harder to move and use compared to a melee in current fights, it also is pretty bad that they'd make fights more melee friendly but not consider how much it would effect ranged, I mean SHB people I remember were arguing that ranged tax was pretty weird, but it wasn't that vocal, now phys ranged has even less reason to be so highly "taxed" .

A 4% tax on let's just say 10,000 dps is 400 dps, only increasing as melee are doing over 10k DPS. So we are looking at 400-something DPS gap.

Assuming your group is 1000 DPS behind the DPS check, simply switching jobs will account for 40% of the execution gap among all 8 players required to clear. One person just clicking a job change button will account for 40% of the necessary optimization to clear. That is enough that the last DPS slot should be locked to melee, as one person getting melee sufficiently optimized is easier than expecting the group to squeeze out an extra 1000 dps when they are already trying their best with what they have.

I think 4% isn't close enough to open the fourth slot. If you do not open the fourth slot, the conversation about damage taxes isn't really relevant.

The damage melee and BLM does over other jobs should be equivalent to working in that optimization, not a "cushion against failure". I'm fine with risk and reward being, say, 200 DPS, but being automatically assigned "best damage" so I don't feel like I am being compared to ranged who are perfectly executing their rotations is not engaging to say the least.

The tax should be:

melee - actual challenges to uptime - unavoidable melee downtime = ranged

Actual challenges to uptime generally net 2-4ish GCDs/a little more positionals per fight.

Will this mean melee are still automatically superior on dummy fights? Sure, but not massively so, and the gap is small enough a grand majority of players will not care what you play.

[Mithron]

I think "1%" of all jobs away from each other sentiment is pretty awful.
Generally I'd say "3-4%" is good, at least a good start and a good goal for future balance, I don't think a massive difference like 10% should exist.

I'm willing to concede for more of a gap of 1%, but not about "raise tax," defensive utility/mitigation, or mobility/range. The only tax should be raid damage buffs, still.

[Rithy255]

I'm willing to concede for more of a gap of 1%, but not about "raise tax," defensive utility/mitigation, or mobility/range. The only tax should be raid damage buffs, still.

Raise should be taxed, removed or given to BLM.
If it's not useful enough to be "Taxed" then remove it lol, that's really simple.

[Dzian]

Raise should be taxed, removed or given to BLM.
If it's not useful enough to be "Taxed" then remove it lol, that's really simple.

Honestly if they ever fix the arcanist crap and actually separate smn and sch. I'd say smn should lose its raise.. rdm should keep it cos its generally part of its identity white and black magics yada yada.

Raise shouldn't be taxed though as it already is.. casting raise costs you dps.. so you're already paying..

As for discrepancies as I mentioned earlier every job when played to 100% should make an almost perfectly equal contribution to the party...

The problem this game has is that with all the dumbing down and over simplification of basically everything. Then only contribution any job can bring is dps..

As a result there will never be balance until every job essentially does the same dps. Either directly or indirectly via yet more dumb ass 2 minute buffs.

[Aurora428]

Raise should be taxed, removed or given to BLM.
If it's not useful enough to be "Taxed" then remove it lol, that's really simple.

RDM and SMN raise is only useful during a prog point where everyone could be 0 dps.

Taxing it does nothing to stop these strengths.

It's raise is only useful when damage doesn't matter, and loses any and all use once it does. Most raises they DO provide were actually unnecessary and healers could have dealt with the situation on their own.

There are a thousand things they could do, but taxing damage for raise is completely pointless and accomplishes nothing. Something needs done with BLM yes, but the raise tax needs to be done away with regardless of that conversation.

Damage and raising are seperate issues, entirely.

[MagiusNecros]

Raise should be taxed, removed or given to BLM.
If it's not useful enough to be "Taxed" then remove it lol, that's really simple.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...inal_Fantasy_V)

They can't remove Raise from RDM since it's part of their identity. They should make the MP cost for Raise on Red Mage much higher if the devs want to buff their damage.

And the won't ever give BLM a raise. It's never had it in the series ever.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...inal_Fantasy_V)

Raise should be integrated from Phoenix(meaning that the Phoenix will raise dead players while it's out) on SMN alongside removing the Necromancer themed skills in favor of fleshing out a more broad summoning kit associated with cast times instead of the melee mage Frankenstein monster they've created.

A personal issue I have with the SMN is that the bulk of the damage should still come from the monsters you summon and not the Summoner.

[Kabooa]

And the won't ever give BLM a raise. It's never had it in the series ever.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Down

[MagiusNecros]

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Down

Good point. Let all players raise their party members with the item itself.

Isn't that the devs slogan? Bring the player not the job?

[Rithy255]

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...inal_Fantasy_V)

They can't remove Raise from RDM since it's part of their identity. They should make the MP cost for Raise on Red Mage much higher if the devs want to buff their damage.

And the won't ever give BLM a raise. It's never had it in the series ever.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...inal_Fantasy_V)

Raise should be integrated from Phoenix(meaning that the Phoenix will raise dead players while it's out) on SMN alongside removing the Necromancer themed skills in favor of fleshing out a more broad summoning kit associated with cast times instead of the melee mage Frankenstein monster they've created.

A personal issue I have with the SMN is that the bulk of the damage should still come from the monsters you summon and not the Summoner.

Drk is also a DPS in older games, shouldn't be balancing around "idenity"

I don't even want raise removed, I just don't want RDM to be 1% off BLM and also keep it's ability to raise.

It doesn't matter if "it's only useful for prog" the game should generally be balanced around progression aswell (actually progression is the main factor they should balance around considering it's the hardest part about fights), BLM shouldn't only be useful for "1%" extra damage.

If RDM was such a useless class currently people wouldn't be bringing it for it's utility despite low damage, oh wait they do more then black mage.

Raise shouldn't be taxed though as it already is.. casting raise costs you dps.. so you're already paying..

Yeah but people want RDM to be 1% off mithron said that anyway, Raise should be taxed or removed, if rdm players want BLM damage bye bye raise! If they want utility oh no you do 3-4% less damage then BLM (Ideally, all casters need to do more in general).

[MagiusNecros]

Drk is also a DPS in older games, shouldn't be balancing around "idenity"

I don't even want raise removed, I just don't want RDM to be 1% off BLM and also keep it's ability to raise.

It doesn't matter if "it's only useful for prog" the game should generally be balanced around progression aswell (actually progression is the main factor they should balance around considering it's the hardest part about fights), BLM shouldn't only be useful for "1%" extra damage.

If RDM was such a useless class currently people wouldn't be bringing it for it's utility despite low damage, oh wait they do more then black mage.

DRK has 2 jobs in this game Dark Knight and Reaper(discount FFXI DRK) and they both do good DPS and DRK does the highest DPS of all the Tanks.

Putzing around with nonsense like range tax and raise tax doesn't really solve the issue. If DPS is low utility needs to be higher. If utility is low then you need higher DPS and I feel that if melee is doing as much as they are then casters which are typically fragile yet strong in every other entry of the series need to do higher damage overall.

I don't think casters or any job should be within 1% of each other either. Each job class should have it's own pros and cons that sets itself apart from their peers.

But that's not gonna happen unless they implement the success of jobs in PvP. And it probably won't happen because they've designed a game where only damage matters and nothing else.

Need to prog to learn mechs then take a RDM. Know the fight and can farm clears? Take BLM. Want a in between option? Take SMN.

And I think what will happen unfortunately is at some point every class will have a Healer DPS rotation.